Cut stantion height?

[fleck]

Dave,

Why don't you write up the proposed rule changes and send it to Tom?

I'm in favor of 18" min stanchions. Do we allow changes to the bow pulpit also? Since there is no 'class standard' for the stern pulpit ( or handles), I say let the stern would be open for any mods.

[Tom Elsen]

Hi Bob & Dave
There actually is a class standard for the bow pulpit. It's what's on your boat. They're all the same. I say let's leave that alone. I guarantee it will increase the chances of this thing passing.
The stern rail is another matter. Since there's no standard (boats came with and without them) you can pretty much do what you like anyhow.

The vote will be late this year or early next.

[dave]

fleck, be careful what you ask for. 18" stanchions would allow the crew LESS comfort and hiking ability than they now have. With the present 24" stanchions, dropping the second lifeline down to 12", 10" or even 8" [which is legal under the current wording] and running them a little on the loose [illegal] side, which EVERYONE does, the crew would not only be able to hike out further but also to be more comfortable than if we went to 18" stanchions. 18" is too high to hike comfortably/efficiently and too low to quickly/easily/safely get underneath if a second lifeline were used too. Also, 18" is still a long lever arm. I just sat down on the floor and put a ruler next to me. 18" hits me square in the middle of the sternum. This is actually a dual issue. Not only are the present bases engineered so that the stanchions sit vertically when the boat is at rest, they are also mounted an appreciable distance inboard from the gunnwale of the boat. Hypothetically speaking, if we went to 12" - 14" stanchions AND allowed the relocation of the stanchion bases [swapping base positions and/or turning them around] to move the actual lifeline outboard a litte, VIOLA, all of the birds have been killed with one stone! There would be no more need for a second lifeline either. Just think of the comfort and ease of sailing this would bring about! Like I said earlier, the Ulitimate 20 uses 12" stanchions that are angled outboard [like they should be] and you hardly even notice them while you are sailing/crewing on the boat. It just makes sense. One other plus, a comfortable crew is a happy crew and one that is more likely to want to continue sailing with you, something that we ALL need.

Dave

[dave]

Bob, I should have added that although 18" [my original figure] was what this thread started at, I never really thought that it would go this far or that there would be a real interest in changing, it was just a starting point of discussion. So, I wasn't being accusatory of your thought and your agreement to that height. It was more of a natural progression of logic that if we are going to do this, let's do it right the first time.

Thank you all for the support. It surprises me actually. Living here in Arkansas I have grown unaccustomed to forward thinking, open minded, logical people. That speaks well for the class and frankly, excites me too!

Dave

[Tom Elsen]

For a variety of reasons, the idea of angling the stantions outboard isn't going to fly. Let's focus on stantion height.

[dave]

Tom, with all due respect, one persons "not going to fly" is another persons epiphany. All three [per side] bases are built to different angles. If the lifeline height issue goes through it would be a 45 minute to hour job to move the bases to the proper location to get the lifeline itself to the outboard edge of the boat, and while NOT the logical place to stop, is what the racing rules and PHRF allow without penalty.

Thanks,
Dave

P.S. I'll bet the Wright brothers heard that alot! "Not going to fly"

[fleck]

Dave,

I was agreeing to a 18 in min, not changing the height to 18 in. I personally wouldnt' cut down my stancions. As you said, I think that hiking with dual lifelines is easier with the taller stanchions.

I also agree with Tom that changing the angle of the stanchions would not be a good idea. I think that having the stancions lean outboard would put the lifeline "safety system" at risk of damage.

On a side note, there is a proposal at ISAF to not allow hiking between the lifelines. This might change peoples views on stancion height. This may change peoples' preferences if it passes.

Tom,
I already thought about the bow pulpit, and agree that it would be best to leave it alone. Either run the top line to the same attachement point, or attach at the 18 in hieght.

[dave]

What "damage" are you speaking of?

Dave

[Tom Clark]

Dave,
I join those who are a little concerned about outboard angled stanchions. We sail in a club that puts 150 boats on necessarily small courses. Our twelve 7.9s start only three minutes behind twenty-five Capri 25's. We have some pretty tight mark roundings, as you can imagine, with a fair share of contact. Is changing the angle of the stanchions going to increase the likelihood of our boat getting tangled up with, let's say a Capri? (Mind you, there are times we would like to skewer a few Capris, but it is known to be slow when you don't come apart.)

I'm sure you have a better grasp of the geometry of all this than I, but I believe my concern is valid. It just seems the furthur out the stanchions go, the more likely they, and the lifeline, are to be involved in contact situations.

Tom Clark
Wavelength #525

[dave]

Let me try this again. If the stanchions are cut to 18" [hypothetical] and then matched to the proper base [three different angles] for the three different deck angles the lifeline itself would wind up at the outside edge of the boat, not past it. Even at this the stock 24" stanchions in their stock positions would stick out just as far or even further on a heeled boat at a mark rounding.

I'm still waiting for an answere to my question, "what damage"?

Dave

[fleck]

Dave,

I was imagining an exaggeratted outboard angle.
Tom answered one on the ways they could be damaged. Also consider boats that are docked to fixed piers, raft-ups at major regattas, storms....

I just checked pics of the Ultimate 20 and see that they are actually vertical from the edge of the boat. The 7.9's current stanchion angle ends up being pretty much vertical ( see pic). I think the current angle with a double ( and a committed crew) works pretty well at getting the weight outboard. See pic 2.

Is your goal to get the lifelines above or outboard of the edge of the boat (if so, how much)?



I love my crew!

[dave]

I don't know how I could be more clear on what I'm describing. I have never used the words "past the edge" or "outside of the edge", or any other phrasing that might make someone think that I wanted to get the lifelines outside the verticle edge of the boat.

I sailed on an Ultimate 20 for almost two seasons. The stanchions were angled out slightly to have the purpose of getting the lifeline as close to the verticle edge of the boat as possible.

Dave

[Tigerlily]

Fleck,
Great pictures!!
My crew is motley..... but I love them too....

[Tom Clark]

Dave,
I guess it was the "while Not the logical place to stop" comment from an earlier post which had me thinking you really wanted to push this as far as you could. But all you're talking about is an inch or at most two, particularly if you want the tip of a 14" stanchion to follow the same arc as the tip of a 24" stanchion as the boat moves from heeling to flat. While I do understand the importance of getting weight out as far as possible, this aspect of your proposal seems much better suited for gaining a slight PHRF advantage than for maintaining the health of the one design fleet. For me, the work and potential problems created by moving stanchions outweigh the slight advantage created. I am all for allowing shorter stanchions, because we already allow a lower lifeline, but leave the angles and stanchion location alone. At least we will be equally "imperfect".

Tom Clark
Wavelength #525

[dave]

I will say no more on the subject of swapping bases, etc. All of this conjecture was aimed at making the boat more CREW friendly and reducing the possibility and/or degree of deck damage done by those who insist on hanging and/or pulling on 24" stanchions. To that end, I go back to my observation that an 18" stanchion hit's me [5'10"] in the upper mid part of the sternum, and is still a quite long lever arm on such small bases. It seems that most of those who use a second lifeline mount it midway between the top and the bottom, 12". That serves very well as a comfortable height to hike against, half of the lever arm of stock length, and would make tacking the Genoa and dealing with the tweekers much easier, not to mention getting on or off the boat at the dock. The worst injury that I've ever had in 30 years of sailing was falling through a spinnaker covered [open] deck hatch on a J-80 [two broken ribs]. After that, my worst BUNCH of injuries have come from getting hung up in the lifelines while getting on or off of a keelboat with tall stanchions. Sometimes I landed on the boat and sometimes the dock but I'm still trying to figure out why something that dangerous is called a "lifeline" ! For those of you who think that I'm a clutz, there are two kinds of keelboat sailor; those who have busted their butts falling over lifelines and those who will.

Anyway, I await with bated breath for more deliberations and pontifications on stanchion height.

Dave