I was just in my garage and have the rudder laying horizontal on saw horses. I noticed a small wet spot on the section that goes under the boat when mounted. After a more careful exam with my son we can actually hear water moving around when flipping the entire rudder. I will move it to a heated area to avoid freezing but there's got to be a way to drain it. Any suggestions? Drill small 1/8" holes somewhere?
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Water in Rudder
Moderators: Tim Bosma, Tom Elsen
Water in Rudder
Stef
Odyssey #146
Odyssey #146
-
Tom Elsen
- Site Admin
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:42 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, MN & Chicago, IL
Holy Winter Project !!
Stef, can you really hear this? No kidding?
If so, my suggestion is to start the project by figuring out (if possible) where you're taking on the water. Most likely suspect is the pivot-axle hole in the head of the rudder. Pull the rudder blade from the box and check this for signs of wear - distorted shape, wet glass etc. Tip the blade down at the head and let it sit in a heated space for a couple of days with some newspaper under the pivot. Any 'leaks' from that area?
Also while you're at it, check the whole blade for any 'makers marks'. Especially up near the top of the head. An "H" perhaps?
One more, How long have you had the boat?
If that sound is really water.....well, the good news is that you didn't discover the problem when the tiller went suspiciously light on a puffy spinnaker reach (like Jeff Mootz did)... the bad news is that you're going to learn a lot more about fixing rudders.
Stef, can you really hear this? No kidding?
If so, my suggestion is to start the project by figuring out (if possible) where you're taking on the water. Most likely suspect is the pivot-axle hole in the head of the rudder. Pull the rudder blade from the box and check this for signs of wear - distorted shape, wet glass etc. Tip the blade down at the head and let it sit in a heated space for a couple of days with some newspaper under the pivot. Any 'leaks' from that area?
Also while you're at it, check the whole blade for any 'makers marks'. Especially up near the top of the head. An "H" perhaps?
One more, How long have you had the boat?
If that sound is really water.....well, the good news is that you didn't discover the problem when the tiller went suspiciously light on a puffy spinnaker reach (like Jeff Mootz did)... the bad news is that you're going to learn a lot more about fixing rudders.
Best wishes,
Tom
Tom
Yes, I can really hear it!!!
I have already turned it upside down, right side up, ect. and left it a day or 2. The only place I get a wet spot is the top part of the rudder, the section when sailing that is under the boat, it's right on the top near the corner before it turns down into the water (don't know the proper terminology if any). It seems I may have had the rudder pushed too far down and this corner spot was occasionally rubbing on the hull. I've checked the hull, no problems accept some paint has worn off. When I squeeze the sides of the rudder a drop or 2 of water will come out of that spot, however the water I hear seems to be more in the central lower section. I have tried turning it upside with the location in question at the lowest point, but it's not coming out. I guess it needs a breather hole.
In answer to your question on how long I have owned the boat, 13 months. I had no real sailing experience accept Hobie 16 (recreational) and I sail an arrow iceboat (designed by Spike Bostons dad I believe) in the winter when possible. I did some research on sailboats and came up with a criteria, the 7.9 met that. I found the boat for sale on this web site, it was only 3 hrs away. Joined the class right away and found past commodore Gary Hendrickson's is 100% correct with his thoughts on membership. If it wasn't for people like yourself and the other members I would be dead in the water, no pun intended.
I have already turned it upside down, right side up, ect. and left it a day or 2. The only place I get a wet spot is the top part of the rudder, the section when sailing that is under the boat, it's right on the top near the corner before it turns down into the water (don't know the proper terminology if any). It seems I may have had the rudder pushed too far down and this corner spot was occasionally rubbing on the hull. I've checked the hull, no problems accept some paint has worn off. When I squeeze the sides of the rudder a drop or 2 of water will come out of that spot, however the water I hear seems to be more in the central lower section. I have tried turning it upside with the location in question at the lowest point, but it's not coming out. I guess it needs a breather hole.
In answer to your question on how long I have owned the boat, 13 months. I had no real sailing experience accept Hobie 16 (recreational) and I sail an arrow iceboat (designed by Spike Bostons dad I believe) in the winter when possible. I did some research on sailboats and came up with a criteria, the 7.9 met that. I found the boat for sale on this web site, it was only 3 hrs away. Joined the class right away and found past commodore Gary Hendrickson's is 100% correct with his thoughts on membership. If it wasn't for people like yourself and the other members I would be dead in the water, no pun intended.
Stef
Odyssey #146
Odyssey #146
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ffoote
Hi Stef,
You probably have an area of delamination where the glass has come away from the core and allowed water in from above or it has accumulated thru osmosis. Check the neck of the rudder for stress cracks. You might try tapping the rudder with a wood mallet, the change in tone will locate areas of delamination. Map out the contour of the affected area(s) and then drill away. I suggest a 1/4" bit as it is hard to get epoxy in thru a 1/8" hole. drain the water and let the whole thing dry as long as possible. Bevel the drill holes then fill with epoxy. A shop-vac will help draw epoxy thru to fill the void caused by delamination.
Good luck
Frank
You probably have an area of delamination where the glass has come away from the core and allowed water in from above or it has accumulated thru osmosis. Check the neck of the rudder for stress cracks. You might try tapping the rudder with a wood mallet, the change in tone will locate areas of delamination. Map out the contour of the affected area(s) and then drill away. I suggest a 1/4" bit as it is hard to get epoxy in thru a 1/8" hole. drain the water and let the whole thing dry as long as possible. Bevel the drill holes then fill with epoxy. A shop-vac will help draw epoxy thru to fill the void caused by delamination.
Good luck
Frank
Stef,
Has the back shoulder by the retention pin ever been mashed. This could be the ingress and some delam over a few winters may be why you now hear it in the foreward area.
On to repairs: several small holes will be in order. Build a cradle to hold the rudder with the wet area low and make the holes. Just one might not be enough to get all the water out. Then after it has drained as much as possible put in under some heat lamps to evap the rest of the moisture out. When dry, fill the holes with epoxy (a syringe might be a good tool here), cure, fair, etc., re-assemble, hang on boat, race.
Do not rush this job, since water has it's own pace. Both the work and the end will be a reward.
Has the back shoulder by the retention pin ever been mashed. This could be the ingress and some delam over a few winters may be why you now hear it in the foreward area.
On to repairs: several small holes will be in order. Build a cradle to hold the rudder with the wet area low and make the holes. Just one might not be enough to get all the water out. Then after it has drained as much as possible put in under some heat lamps to evap the rest of the moisture out. When dry, fill the holes with epoxy (a syringe might be a good tool here), cure, fair, etc., re-assemble, hang on boat, race.
Do not rush this job, since water has it's own pace. Both the work and the end will be a reward.
-
Tom Elsen
- Site Admin
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:42 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, MN & Chicago, IL
Rudders
Stef
I don't want to add to your misery but....
Your rudder is likely from a series that was manufactured by a well known Midwest supplier of sailing hardware. Most of these have failed. So, as long as you're digging around in the thing you might want to do 'the big fix'.
The 'H' rudders have usually snapped horizontally, very near where the fat part of the blade from under the boat joins the head. If your rudder hasn't been stiffened there (likely the only way to tell is from an Xray), I'd do that now.
Rout out a couple of deep channels, and add a couple of very very stiff fiberglass or metal rods / bars. Fill, fair, etc. The rods will need to extend well into the head of the rudder. I'd suggest at least 18", better 24", length rods. Cut the channel a good deal wider than the rod. Don't skimp on depth either. You need to add lateral strength, and the center of the blade is a sort of foam. So if you go in from one side only to the center, the rod could (when under side load) compress the foam on the opposite side. It could work loose and weaken the structure.
Just MHO.
Anybody have first hand experience here?
In addition I would certainly recommend fixing the rudder axle pivot. Drill it out. Fit in a brass pipe nipple. (There's one common ID size that works perfectly when you cut off the threads.) Epoxy it. Fair it. You're done.
I don't want to add to your misery but....
Your rudder is likely from a series that was manufactured by a well known Midwest supplier of sailing hardware. Most of these have failed. So, as long as you're digging around in the thing you might want to do 'the big fix'.
The 'H' rudders have usually snapped horizontally, very near where the fat part of the blade from under the boat joins the head. If your rudder hasn't been stiffened there (likely the only way to tell is from an Xray), I'd do that now.
Rout out a couple of deep channels, and add a couple of very very stiff fiberglass or metal rods / bars. Fill, fair, etc. The rods will need to extend well into the head of the rudder. I'd suggest at least 18", better 24", length rods. Cut the channel a good deal wider than the rod. Don't skimp on depth either. You need to add lateral strength, and the center of the blade is a sort of foam. So if you go in from one side only to the center, the rod could (when under side load) compress the foam on the opposite side. It could work loose and weaken the structure.
Just MHO.
Anybody have first hand experience here?
In addition I would certainly recommend fixing the rudder axle pivot. Drill it out. Fit in a brass pipe nipple. (There's one common ID size that works perfectly when you cut off the threads.) Epoxy it. Fair it. You're done.
Best wishes,
Tom
Tom
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frank
wet rudder
I would agree with Tom. I cut a 2" channel in my old rudder from about the pivot bushing down about a foot. The foam core was moist, almost a bubble-gum consistancy. I then lined the channel with many layers of fiberglass as a stiffener--formed a U-shaped beam in the channel. In the rudders that I built I placed a 24" x 3/4" Stainless steel square tube in about the same position. You can buy the tube in SS or aluminum for about $10 from a metal supplier. Another solution that has been used is to wet out a sheet of carbon fiber cloth (with epoxy), roll it into a tube, and stuff it into your cut out channel.
Go deep with the channel--you want to try to bond both halves of the rudder togather for stiffness.
Frank
Go deep with the channel--you want to try to bond both halves of the rudder togather for stiffness.
Frank
Closer examination shows some other problem areas in the head of the rudder, the very top. The pivot hole seems OK, but the top has some small cracks. The entire rudder has anti-fouling on it so I plan to remove it and make a assesment then. I'm sure it's repairable. When you guys say cut a channel I assume you use a router or similar tool and dig out this 2" width (groove) but how deep?
If someone would be kind enough to email me a sketch of what to do that would be great.
It sounds like a good idea to add the stainless steel rods on each side.
I have looked for an identifying mark like the "H" mentioned, nothing there.
I don't know if it's the original but it's heavy, 55 lbs, with the water of course.
If someone would be kind enough to email me a sketch of what to do that would be great.
It sounds like a good idea to add the stainless steel rods on each side.
I have looked for an identifying mark like the "H" mentioned, nothing there.
I don't know if it's the original but it's heavy, 55 lbs, with the water of course.
Stef
Odyssey #146
Odyssey #146
-
Tom Elsen
- Site Admin
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:42 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, MN & Chicago, IL
Hey Stef
I would definitely fix the pivot hole. Drill it out. Epoxy in a brass pipe nipple. Use the Interprotect 2-part blue product for epoxy. (Expensive. Worth it.)
Also, on further reflection, I'd consider using either some 3/4" x 1/4" aluminum bars for the rudder reinforcement. Maybe even 1" x 1/4. Lay them in "sideways" , that is with the fat side of the bar facing the front of the rudder. Remember, you're adding lateral rigidity, decreasing side-to-side flex at the waterline.
I'd use a router to make the initial channel. Then I'd use a big dremel tool, or a high speed drill, to cut through the rest of the blue core. I would take great care not to cut into the resin or the skin on the other side of the board though. If you're using 1/4" thick stock, I'd make cut the channels about 1/2" wide.
Lay in a floor of new resin with a syringe. Smooth it and let it set. Then fill rest of the channel 50% with resin. Press the bar into place. Fill. Fair. Fair some more. Paint the whole side with VC Underwater. Stand back. Admire your work. Exclaim "Wow that only took 5X longer than I expected."
I would definitely fix the pivot hole. Drill it out. Epoxy in a brass pipe nipple. Use the Interprotect 2-part blue product for epoxy. (Expensive. Worth it.)
Also, on further reflection, I'd consider using either some 3/4" x 1/4" aluminum bars for the rudder reinforcement. Maybe even 1" x 1/4. Lay them in "sideways" , that is with the fat side of the bar facing the front of the rudder. Remember, you're adding lateral rigidity, decreasing side-to-side flex at the waterline.
I'd use a router to make the initial channel. Then I'd use a big dremel tool, or a high speed drill, to cut through the rest of the blue core. I would take great care not to cut into the resin or the skin on the other side of the board though. If you're using 1/4" thick stock, I'd make cut the channels about 1/2" wide.
Lay in a floor of new resin with a syringe. Smooth it and let it set. Then fill rest of the channel 50% with resin. Press the bar into place. Fill. Fair. Fair some more. Paint the whole side with VC Underwater. Stand back. Admire your work. Exclaim "Wow that only took 5X longer than I expected."
Best wishes,
Tom
Tom
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dave R
rudder
my rudder snapped completely off last season - of course wind n18-20 4-6 waves- thru luck we recovered the snapped off blade- drove 2 mi back to the harbor steering with the 5h nissan. anywho, I have pictures of the repair-and guts of a rudder- I can email if anyone's interested. It snapped at the head, horzontally. rather than route the shell, I drilled 1 3/4" holes down into the blade about 36", inserted (and epoxied) 3/4 threaded rod, bent up and around the pivot hole in the head, and epoxied the whole thing back together. epoxied cloth around the head , faired it, bent the rudder cheek plates back to straight,at a welding shop,they had to be heated, and went racing. this happened in june. sailed the rest of the summer ( some in the same conditions) and the repair has held up fine. actually I think it's better than before- I had a little slop before.
This was a repair for a "snapped in two" rudder. To reinforce (preventive medicine) an exsisting rudder- the router method is the way to go. email for the pictures.
This was a repair for a "snapped in two" rudder. To reinforce (preventive medicine) an exsisting rudder- the router method is the way to go. email for the pictures.
Dave, I am in the procees of drying out the rudder. I caught this problem early so I probably avoided the breaking scenario. Drilled a bunch of 1/4" holes and have it under a heat lamp 12 hrs a day. I would love to see the pictures. email me at seeuwen@ptd.net
Thanks.
Thanks.
Stef
Odyssey #146
Odyssey #146
Hi Stef,
What we generally do in these situations is to totally take the rudder down to gel-coat first (i.e. remove all bottom paint) - this way you can get a clear picutre of what is going on, and more importantly if other repair work has been done in the past.
After that generally we open up the area that we KNOW is leaking and hang the rudder with the opened up are face down, leaving a catch basin underneath.
Trying using moderate heat and gravity initally.
Most important is to look (and smell) the water that comes out of the rudder - the darker and the smellier the escaping water, the longer it has been in there and suggests you might have a more major problem, and worth further investigation (more opening up of the rudder)
Drilling several pilot holes (if the water cannot entirely drain from the identified entry point) to assist with draining would be the next step. As mentioned these holes can be easily filled with epoxy afterwards.
If all indicators look like a serious problem, you can actually use a die-grinder and cut the just the skin off in sections while you look for a saturated core. Never, let someone talk you into shooting untold amounts of resin into the voids - this quick term fix almost always ends up causing long term pain. Good luck.
What we generally do in these situations is to totally take the rudder down to gel-coat first (i.e. remove all bottom paint) - this way you can get a clear picutre of what is going on, and more importantly if other repair work has been done in the past.
After that generally we open up the area that we KNOW is leaking and hang the rudder with the opened up are face down, leaving a catch basin underneath.
Trying using moderate heat and gravity initally.
Most important is to look (and smell) the water that comes out of the rudder - the darker and the smellier the escaping water, the longer it has been in there and suggests you might have a more major problem, and worth further investigation (more opening up of the rudder)
Drilling several pilot holes (if the water cannot entirely drain from the identified entry point) to assist with draining would be the next step. As mentioned these holes can be easily filled with epoxy afterwards.
If all indicators look like a serious problem, you can actually use a die-grinder and cut the just the skin off in sections while you look for a saturated core. Never, let someone talk you into shooting untold amounts of resin into the voids - this quick term fix almost always ends up causing long term pain. Good luck.
-
Dave Eserkaln
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2003 10:40 pm
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Gumby
Ridder Rapairs
It was suggested in this thread that a particular mftg run of rudders was / is prone to failure. How does one ID which rudders are at risk?
I'm looking at buying an S2 and curious what to look out for.
Thanks
eg
I'm looking at buying an S2 and curious what to look out for.
Thanks
eg