Genoa winch size

SeanR · Post by **SeanR** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:11 pm

I'm looking at changing out my Lewmar 30's (non self tailing) for self tailer's. Recommendations on brand and size? Thanks.

SeanR

SeanR · Post by **SeanR** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:21 pm

I guess what I'm asking is have you replaced your's with 30 ST or upgraded to 40 ST's

Thanks

SeanR

grandillusion · Post by **grandillusion** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:08 pm

mine came with Lewmar ST40 primarys I wouldn't want anything smaller

dave · Post by **dave** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:13 am

I guess you realize that self tailers will slow your tacks down, but that's a personal decision.

SeanR · Post by **SeanR** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:51 pm

I understand that ST's have an initial 2:1 where most non-ST have an initial 1:1. Does it really make that much difference?

We used standard winches on the J24, but we cross sheeted most of the time.

Thanks

SeanR

Post by **fleck** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:38 pm

Sean,

I think 40's are complete overkill. We currently have 24's non-tailers. My trimmers (almost always female) get the job done with the 24's, but have asked for 30's if I change them out. 30 or 32 would be the ticket. They like the 1:1 gear ratio of the non-tailers so they can get a jump on the trim. If you need more than 32's, you probably should be using the jib. Send me a PM if you want to sell you 30's.

SeanR · Post by **SeanR** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:06 pm

Bob,

Thanks for the reply. I am really on the fence with the upgrade. Both Harken site and Lewmar site recommend 30 size. My concerns come from our past 2 races. 18-25kts with jib. Women trimmers and struggling with the clam cleats slipping out. Kinda survival sailing. I bet in lighter conditions the 30 are fine with CAM cleats?

dave · Post by **dave** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:12 pm

A winch is only as good as how many wraps of line is on it. The holding power is purely friction. If cleats are slipping that leads me to believe that there's too much load on the cleat which means NOT enough load [wraps] on the winch. Also, there is much bad technique around the race course when it comes to tacking headsails and winch work. Especially with the jib, if the tack is done correctly on the trimmers part, there should be very little winching involved! On the Genoa, trimmers who don't use a few well timed full length pulls to get the sail to the acceleration setting BEFORE it loads up are just wearing themselves out and loosing time for their team mates around the race course. Proper technique and timing are WAY more important than the strength of the trimmer or the power of the winch. A heck of a lot cheaper too.

As far as what winch a manufacturer is recommending, remember: they are selling winches, and the higher the price the larger the profit.

grandillusion · Post by **grandillusion** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:17 pm

Lewmar st40 (pair) on ebay item #200212255457

Post by **fleck** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:13 am

Sean,

We go out with wind in the 30's with no problem. I don't think the problem is with your winch, or your trimmers.

A bigger winch won't help slipping on the clam cleats. First I'd replace the clam cleats with cam cleats.
Link: http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d261000/e260230.asp
They hold the tail much better and are less prone to premature release. If the line is slipping on the drum you either need more wraps or a different jib sheet. We run 3/8 Trophy braid for the jib/genoa sheets. But what every you use, make sure that it has a cover that is not slippery. A slippery line will slip on all size of winches (even self tailers), and is more prone to popping out of a clam cleat.

richrand · Post by **richrand** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:21 pm

Absolutely! A good trimmer should be able to nail the jib/genoa trim during a tack without touching the winch. This can easily be done on a 7.9. It's not about strength. It's about timing.

dave wrote:A winch is only as good as how many wraps of line is on it. The holding power is purely friction. If cleats are slipping that leads me to believe that there's too much load on the cleat which means NOT enough load [wraps] on the winch. Also, there is much bad technique around the race course when it comes to tacking headsails and winch work. Especially with the jib, if the tack is done correctly on the trimmers part, there should be very little winching involved! On the Genoa, trimmers who don't use a few well timed full length pulls to get the sail to the acceleration setting BEFORE it loads up are just wearing themselves out and loosing time for their team mates around the race course. Proper technique and timing are WAY more important than the strength of the trimmer or the power of the winch. A heck of a lot cheaper too.

As far as what winch a manufacturer is recommending, remember: they are selling winches, and the higher the price the larger the profit.

dave · Post by **dave** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:46 pm

The only thing that I left out is that the genoa trimmer is at the mercy of the foredeck. If they don't clear the sail around the rig and shrouds the best trimmer in the world won't be able to get the job done. This all assumes that the driver isn't spinning the boat too fast either. A LOT to assume! Most people that I watch out on the course spin the boat too fast in tacks, no matter what type of boat it is. The tack should be started as if responding to a lift, not taking evasive action! This lets the boat get turning gradually which lowers drag on the rudder [and the rest of the bottom]. The tack should be ended to same way, as if responding to a knock. Drivers who jam the tiller over to a set point, hold it there until the the boat is on the new course and then rip the tiller back to centerline [or where ever] are not only hurting the overall performance of the boat but also making life way harder than it has to be or should be for the genoa trimmer AND the crew. If you hear sucking or gurgling sounds as you tack, the boat is telling you to slow down and/or smooth out your tiller movements.

SeanR · Post by **SeanR** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:56 pm

Thanks for all the info. I have to agree with both Dave and Bob. It can't be my trimmers (wife and daughter) because they do a flawless job

It must be those pesky jib sheets and the helm's fault (me). I was just trying to put it off on the winches! Replacing those jib sheets ASAP. Seriously, thanks for all the input. Nothing beats time in the boat, does it?