upper rudder mount

Marionete · Post by **Marionete** » Sat May 17, 2008 12:16 pm

Upon inspecting the rudder prior to attaching it to the transom, I noticed that the mounting bracket attached to the rudder has a bent pin. Well, the pin is actually a stainless bolt with a hex head and a small cotter pin hole at the bottom.

My problem is this: there are two holes in the bracket for the bolt/pin to slide through and the one on top looks to be out of alignment and laterally elongated causing the pin to be out of whack and off the true vertical alignment and then bind when attached.

Options are: replace the strap ?? or weld the side/shoulder of the hole that is elongated and realign ?

Do the other 7.9's use a bolt like this? It looks home-made to me.

Any thoughts on a fix would be appreciated.

Tim S. · Post by **Tim S.** » Wed May 21, 2008 9:02 am

Definately doesn't sound standard to me. I don't know what # you have, but the first 7.9's had the pintles on the rudder, and gudgeons on the transom. Based on the size and spacing of the old gudgeon holes on my transom, I'd say the original hardware was quite undersized. My boat has been converted to the later pintles on the transom hardware.

If you want to stick with the hardware you have, I would have a machinist true up the holes so they are in alignment, and then insert bushings to reduce them back to the correct size. At the same time, maybe you could come up with a proper pin and have it welded in place. The hex bolt thing sounds flakey to me, and is most likely the cause of the distortion you found in the holes.

Good luck

Jim Kloss · Post by **Jim Kloss** » Wed May 21, 2008 1:22 pm

Tops in Quality in Michigan has the blueprints for this hardware, which went through several revisions. They've made up new pintles for me, and I'd recommend increasing the strap thickness from 3/16 (original) to 1/4 (updated).

Jim Kloss
s/v Ambivalence
S2 7.9 #8

Marionete · Post by **Marionete** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:16 pm

I'll have to look at the rudder straps (upper and lower) to get thickness and let you know. This is hull 23 built in 1982, so it sounds like the earlier and lighter duty hardware was installed.

What would be a $$$ guess on replacing both upper and lower pintles from your Michigan machine shop?

I'm still pouring money into the whole, trying to fill it up!

Post by **Tom Elsen** » Fri May 23, 2008 1:27 pm

Trust Jim's opinion. He's got a very similar vintage boat and he's done a bunch of very well-researched work in getting his rudder properly fixed.

dave · Post by **dave** » Fri May 23, 2008 3:42 pm

Just to add here, Jim's suggestions are wise. The load on the gudgeons, pintles and rudder head/blade area are tremendous and beefing things up is wise. The other thing that everyone should remember about the 7.9 is the fact that because of the severely counterbalanced rudder blade MANY 7.9 sailors operate under the mistaken belief that there is no to very little "weather helm" on the blade. Weather helm is the angle of the blade above [to weather of] straight fore and aft, NOT the amount of pull that one feels on the tiller. I have had more than a few 7.9 and 9.1 drivers comment to me how light the helm was on the boat while AT THE SAME TIME having the rail buried and the tiller angling at least 20 degrees to weather while the rudder and keel are making that sucking sound which indicates partial stalling. They didn't feel the load on the blade because of the counter balancing and the blades foil section and thickness allow it to be pushed past the normal stall limits of many other boats before finally letting go and either do an auto tack or auto jibe. Don't be fooled folks: The loads that exist on the said areas are enormous when the boat is allowed to heel much past 15-20 degrees and past that they skyrocket! Look at the tiller's relation to the centerline of the boat when sailing to make a call as to how much actual load is being generated on the gear/blade.

Marionete · Post by **Marionete** » Mon May 26, 2008 8:27 pm

OK; Upon a closer inspection, here's what needs fixing:

The lower pintle has a TWO hairline cracks in the strap where the angle is made toward the pin. Each side has a crack about 1/2 inch long. The upper pintle is somewhat jury-rigged using a 1/2 inch stainless hex head bolt that is improperly aligned.

The rudder plates (aluminum) show more corrosion than wear at the pivot bolt and should probably be tossed in the scrap heap.

Now for the questions: move up to 5/8 pins? if so, do I need new gudgeons or a different bushing that makes up the difference. Where to get new bushings? and last one: What is a good source to replace the rudder mounting plates? Do I remake them out of aluminum? and is there a spec available for a particular type suitable for fresh and salt water use?

Captain Frank · Post by **Captain Frank** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:35 pm

Hi I just lost one of my bushings off my rudder grudgeon (1984 model) 7.9. The other one is chipped/cracked. Where do I get replacements for those or do I have to make some?

Any body have measurements or any ideas.

I also bent the keeper pin that holds the rudder in up or down. Where can I get a replacement for that.

I also broke of a chunk of fiberglass around the top of the rudder when the pin broke while in down position. I am thinking of using automotive fiberglass epoxy filler due to its ease of use. What do you think??

sycmcsa · Post by **sycmcsa** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:23 pm

Captain Frank wrote:Hi I just lost one of my bushings off my rudder grudgeon (1984 model) 7.9. The other one is chipped/cracked. Where do I get replacements for those or do I have to make some?

I got a new set of bushings from Stef last year, they are great!!! Here is the link

http://sailingsource.com/s279/board/vie ... php?t=1047

Jim Kloss · Post by **Jim Kloss** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:57 pm

You can order the retaining pin from McMaster-Carr.com in Chicago.

1 94975A501 1 Each 18-8 Ss Ring-grip Quick-release Pin W/lanyard, 5/16" Diameter, 4.0" Usable Length

Great source of all kinds of stuff for those of us who don't have local suppliers.

Jim Kloss
s/v Ambivalence
S2 7.9 #8

alanhsails · Post by **alanhsails** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:55 pm

dave wrote:Just to add here, Jim's suggestions are wise. The load on the gudgeons, pintles and rudder head/blade area are tremendous and beefing things up is wise. The other thing that everyone should remember about the 7.9 is the fact that because of the severely counterbalanced rudder blade MANY 7.9 sailors operate under the mistaken belief that there is no to very little "weather helm" on the blade. Weather helm is the angle of the blade above [to weather of] straight fore and aft, NOT the amount of pull that one feels on the tiller. I have had more than a few 7.9 and 9.1 drivers comment to me how light the helm was on the boat while AT THE SAME TIME having the rail buried and the tiller angling at least 20 degrees to weather while the rudder and keel are making that sucking sound which indicates partial stalling. They didn't feel the load on the blade because of the counter balancing and the blades foil section and thickness allow it to be pushed past the normal stall limits of many other boats before finally letting go and either do an auto tack or auto jibe. Don't be fooled folks: The loads that exist on the said areas are enormous when the boat is allowed to heel much past 15-20 degrees and past that they skyrocket! Look at the tiller's relation to the centerline of the boat when sailing to make a call as to how much actual load is being generated on the gear/blade.

This was very interesting. I just sailed my boat up to the yard with a full main and #1 up. It was blowing at 10 knots, flat water. The rail was nowhere near buried, but I had the rudder about 15 deg to weather the whole time. At the same time, the load I had to hold on to on the tiller was minimal. Dropping the traveler a lot, eased the rudder angle.

alanhsails · Post by **alanhsails** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:06 pm

sycmcsa wrote:
Captain Frank wrote:Hi I just lost one of my bushings off my rudder grudgeon (1984 model) 7.9. The other one is chipped/cracked. Where do I get replacements for those or do I have to make some?
I got a new set of bushings from Stef last year, they are great!!! Here is the link

http://sailingsource.com/s279/board/vie ... php?t=1047

Linky dead, now. This was 8 years ago. I just lost a bushing the other day and need to get new ones!

normbue · Post by **normbue** » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:59 pm

If you look thru this site, someone has those pintles, gudgeons and bushings. but if you search or look thru some of the OLD postings you should find him. I believe he also has the hatch slides.

BarryE · Post by **BarryE** » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:40 pm

Wow, resurrecting an old Zombie thread. If anyone is interested, Tops-in-Quality, the original supplier for most of the stainless hardware closed their doors several years ago. Most of the blueprints and drawings ended up at nearby Blue Water Marine. Both firms were from the Port Huron, MI area.

alanhsails · Post by **alanhsails** » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:07 pm

I'm in touch with Stef? Stefan? -- s.seeuwen@XYZ.com

I didn't want to publish his/her actual e-mail without his/her permission. He/she says they've got a few sets of the bushings left at $26/set.

Now I find some thingamabobs on the boat which might be new bushings. I'll be trying 'em out but might be buying a set from Stef.

S2 7.9 Meter Class Association

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Re: upper rudder mount

Re: upper rudder mount