Hello everyone; I am in the process of purchasing hull 23, formerly known as RUNAWAY from NJ. So far I have identified two soft spots in the deck - one large area almost a foot square surrounding the port chain plate, and another just forward of the mast step on the top of the dog house. Are there any other wet core issues that are consistent with the earlier (1982) models that I should be aware of, and how difficult is it to repair the coring if done from inside the cabin?
If we complete the purchase, the boat will be raced on the Severn - Round Bay or possibly the Magothy River if a slip becomes available.
I started sailing 30 years ago and was hooked after owning two Cal 25's. Raced on the bay regularly ever since and was crew for a few years on RAMSHACKLE, and also on two S2 9.1's.
Any observations to point me in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. J Aellen
Water in Core questions
Moderators: Tim Bosma, Tom Elsen
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Tom Elsen
- Site Admin
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:42 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, MN & Chicago, IL
The chainplate area is reasonably common, and not too difficult to fix. It is possible to do from below. The mast step is less common, more difficult, and can't be done from below. Check the migration. It sounds like you have some experience with this, otherwise I'd certainly recommend having the step professionally repaired.
Also be sure to check the following:
- the starboard chainplate AND the integrity of the entire bulkhead
- all stantion bases
- the pintles bolts (also check for weld cracks on the pintles)
- the daggerboard supports (turning block and stainless support on the deck)
- the rudder, especially in the area of the pivot bolt
- (obviously) check the bottom for blisters
- also check the spreader tang (on the mast) for weld cracks
Good luck and welcome to the class
Also be sure to check the following:
- the starboard chainplate AND the integrity of the entire bulkhead
- all stantion bases
- the pintles bolts (also check for weld cracks on the pintles)
- the daggerboard supports (turning block and stainless support on the deck)
- the rudder, especially in the area of the pivot bolt
- (obviously) check the bottom for blisters
- also check the spreader tang (on the mast) for weld cracks
Good luck and welcome to the class
Best wishes,
Tom
Tom
It seems like Tom has mentioned all of the known trouble spots; on my boat, #11, I also had some water get into the hull just under the campanionway steps, this required some professional repair, an area about 2 square feet needed recoring, and glasswork. It had to be done carefully to avoid dropping the ballast that is molded in at that point.
Also, I had some water get into the transom through the sheetmetal screws that hold down the rear trim.
Also, I had some water get into the transom through the sheetmetal screws that hold down the rear trim.
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marionette
Rotten to the Core?
OK, the comments from the board are most appreciated. But now you both have me thinking about this in greater detail. Is there balsa core in the hull too, or just the deck, transom and cockpit sole?
Also, if the area a foot or so forward of the mast step plate is soft, water is probably migrating elsewhere - which begs just one more question.
Is the area directly under the mast step plate cored as well?
If there is water in that section of laminate, it could be a real job working the area above the bulkhead running through the center of the cabin. I hate when this happens! (actually, I just hate it when a boat is neglected like this, because the regular maintenance is so easy and the repair such a pain).
Thanks, RUNAWAY #23
Also, if the area a foot or so forward of the mast step plate is soft, water is probably migrating elsewhere - which begs just one more question.
Is the area directly under the mast step plate cored as well?
If there is water in that section of laminate, it could be a real job working the area above the bulkhead running through the center of the cabin. I hate when this happens! (actually, I just hate it when a boat is neglected like this, because the regular maintenance is so easy and the repair such a pain).
Thanks, RUNAWAY #23
Nearly all of the hull, in fact nearly all of the boat is balsa cored. I've forgotten exactly how thick the laminate is in specific areas, but it seems to me that the balsa is about 1/2 to 3/4 thick in places. I've never had to dig into the mast step area as mine is still solid there, but it might have plywood molded in there for extra support. (does anyone know for sure?)
I do know that the hull foward of the centerboard trunk is cored, my speedo thruhull is there, and I had to cut through about 1 1/2 inches total to mount it.
The deck, and cabin sides are all balsa cored as well, the deck tapers to a solid flange near the hull/deck joint, that leaves you with a curved surface where your stancion backing plates won't lie flush.
Most deck hardware was factory mounted with just a splash of silicone sealant. Pull everything you can, re-core the mounting holes in the time tested, "bent nail router, and epoxy method" then reset the hardware with a quality marine sealer.
One unique core problem I encountered, When I bought the boat, in 95, the compass had leaked oil into the cabin bulkhead balsa core. the original factory install did not seal the hole in any way.
I do know that the hull foward of the centerboard trunk is cored, my speedo thruhull is there, and I had to cut through about 1 1/2 inches total to mount it.
The deck, and cabin sides are all balsa cored as well, the deck tapers to a solid flange near the hull/deck joint, that leaves you with a curved surface where your stancion backing plates won't lie flush.
Most deck hardware was factory mounted with just a splash of silicone sealant. Pull everything you can, re-core the mounting holes in the time tested, "bent nail router, and epoxy method" then reset the hardware with a quality marine sealer.
One unique core problem I encountered, When I bought the boat, in 95, the compass had leaked oil into the cabin bulkhead balsa core. the original factory install did not seal the hole in any way.
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Tom Elsen
- Site Admin
- Posts: 419
- Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:42 pm
- Location: Minneapolis, MN & Chicago, IL
No core AFAIK on the cockpit sole. The hull, cabin top and much of the deck is cored.
The area under the mast step has about an 18" plywood base. That you will need to remove and very very carefully replace from above. You cannot do that from below. Unless you're quite certain about what you're doing, this is a job for a pro...and a VERY good pro. Not only does the glasswork and the structual work need to be correct, but the plate will need to be restored to its exact original location (fore / aft, port / starboard AND at the correct elevation).
The area under the mast step has about an 18" plywood base. That you will need to remove and very very carefully replace from above. You cannot do that from below. Unless you're quite certain about what you're doing, this is a job for a pro...and a VERY good pro. Not only does the glasswork and the structual work need to be correct, but the plate will need to be restored to its exact original location (fore / aft, port / starboard AND at the correct elevation).
Best wishes,
Tom
Tom
rot
I removed every bit of deck hardware about 10 months ago to let everything dry and to repair all of the bad places. There were WAY more bad places than I could find by the time tested methods of tapping on the deck, or finding spongy areas by walking/pushing on them. Before I get started I must remind everyone again, I do this kind of thing for a living.
The boat is an '84 I believe, # 298.I knew that the mast step area was gone because the deck in front and to the port side of it was soft, but the port side top deck skin had also warped upward as the mast step compressed toward that side. Under the mast step there are just the fiberglass skins of the deck on the inner and outer side, putty [resin mixed with filler] plywood and an aluminum plate to spread the load over the top of the daggerboard trunk. The plywood was toast, the aluminum plate looks like a corroded battery terminal [which it is with SS bolts running through it, combined with water to form a battery!] and the balsa core surrounding the area is rotten to wet [some of it had already dissappeared!] 18" aft on the port side, 4-6" back on the starboard side and all of the way out to the edge of the doghouse in some areas. Other areas that were TOTALLY rotten, and I mean compost! The area under the traveler track, plywood compost on both sides. The area under and all around the stern rail pads, ditto. I had already repaired the starboard side genoa turning block/winch/rear genoa track area of this boat about 12 years ago. Also, althought the area underneath the cabin top and main winches is plywood, it was still wet and on it's way to rotten. It just takes longer!
All boats, no matter how much they cost, that were built using balsa core are subject to these kind of issues, some worse than others. This particular 7.9 is one of the worst that I have seen but the other 7.9 owners out there would do well to check these areas by drilling through the inside skin like I did. That was the only way that I found all of the rot. The boat has been under a black visqueen tent since then with a heater and Damprid bags hanging on the inside. My partner and I peeled all of the deck liner off and I drilled an inspection hole at least every 5" in any direction through the underside skin until I got into good, dry balsa core. And as usual with this type of work, just because the balsa looked light colored and fine didn't mean that it was dry. It wasn't pretty. At least 45-50% of the balsa was damp, even though most of it was still sound. I haven't checked on the drying in months but I'm getting ready to. It was just too depressing to jump back into!
Dave
The boat is an '84 I believe, # 298.I knew that the mast step area was gone because the deck in front and to the port side of it was soft, but the port side top deck skin had also warped upward as the mast step compressed toward that side. Under the mast step there are just the fiberglass skins of the deck on the inner and outer side, putty [resin mixed with filler] plywood and an aluminum plate to spread the load over the top of the daggerboard trunk. The plywood was toast, the aluminum plate looks like a corroded battery terminal [which it is with SS bolts running through it, combined with water to form a battery!] and the balsa core surrounding the area is rotten to wet [some of it had already dissappeared!] 18" aft on the port side, 4-6" back on the starboard side and all of the way out to the edge of the doghouse in some areas. Other areas that were TOTALLY rotten, and I mean compost! The area under the traveler track, plywood compost on both sides. The area under and all around the stern rail pads, ditto. I had already repaired the starboard side genoa turning block/winch/rear genoa track area of this boat about 12 years ago. Also, althought the area underneath the cabin top and main winches is plywood, it was still wet and on it's way to rotten. It just takes longer!
All boats, no matter how much they cost, that were built using balsa core are subject to these kind of issues, some worse than others. This particular 7.9 is one of the worst that I have seen but the other 7.9 owners out there would do well to check these areas by drilling through the inside skin like I did. That was the only way that I found all of the rot. The boat has been under a black visqueen tent since then with a heater and Damprid bags hanging on the inside. My partner and I peeled all of the deck liner off and I drilled an inspection hole at least every 5" in any direction through the underside skin until I got into good, dry balsa core. And as usual with this type of work, just because the balsa looked light colored and fine didn't mean that it was dry. It wasn't pretty. At least 45-50% of the balsa was damp, even though most of it was still sound. I haven't checked on the drying in months but I'm getting ready to. It was just too depressing to jump back into!
Dave
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marionette
good core / bad core
Dave,
Thank you for adding the encouragement I needed here. I guess that when it's all said and done, you have to make a decision as to what is a wet boat worth that requires all this work?
Hull 23 is cosmetically as good as you could expect for an 82. Not alot of rediculous holes by a gung ho got to have everything hardware freak either. Basic original stuff with a few blocks replace at the mast step. Instruments will have to go, so I'll have to plug or cover holes and replace. Transducers are fwd of board in hull and don't know if core there is wet (yet). Need to check engine intake and other deck hardware with moisture meter to see what is next.
The sails are kevlar main and kevlar #1, pentex #3, tri radial, all decent with a few seasons left , spin lock boom kicker and new headfoil, and halyards, Diesel rebuilt a year ago with little running time. New cutlass bearing probably a good idea. Bottom does not reveal blisters, and has good coat of paint.
Any guess as to what it's worth? Also - no trailer. Asking $7500??
Thank you for adding the encouragement I needed here. I guess that when it's all said and done, you have to make a decision as to what is a wet boat worth that requires all this work?
Hull 23 is cosmetically as good as you could expect for an 82. Not alot of rediculous holes by a gung ho got to have everything hardware freak either. Basic original stuff with a few blocks replace at the mast step. Instruments will have to go, so I'll have to plug or cover holes and replace. Transducers are fwd of board in hull and don't know if core there is wet (yet). Need to check engine intake and other deck hardware with moisture meter to see what is next.
The sails are kevlar main and kevlar #1, pentex #3, tri radial, all decent with a few seasons left , spin lock boom kicker and new headfoil, and halyards, Diesel rebuilt a year ago with little running time. New cutlass bearing probably a good idea. Bottom does not reveal blisters, and has good coat of paint.
Any guess as to what it's worth? Also - no trailer. Asking $7500??
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Bob Kirsten
- Posts: 66
- Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:55 pm
- Location: Farmington Hills, MI
More on soft spots
Guys,
My boat is #438, 1986, and I just finished some soft spot repairs (must admit, by a professional). Both Port and Sbd stansion bases just forward of the cockpit have needed to be fixed, as the deck was showing some cracks, but the base was definately rocking under load. My guy pulled back the fabric headliner, dug it out from beneath, built it up with solid glass, redrilled the holes, reseated with 4200, added a bigger aluminum backing plate, and reglued the headliner. I have owned the boat for 7 years, and even when I got it, it had some spider cracking in the cockpit seats both fore and aft of the traveler. The moisture meter showed these areas as very wet for about 6-10 inches, both fore and aft, so we dug these out, found that it was balsa cored even where the traveler connects, so made these solid glass. This part of the repair did lead me to need to Awgrip the cockpit.
I appreciate the suggestions from everyone about rebedding everything that thru-bolts. How often do you suppose we should plan to do this? Every few years? What's the group recommendation?
My boat is #438, 1986, and I just finished some soft spot repairs (must admit, by a professional). Both Port and Sbd stansion bases just forward of the cockpit have needed to be fixed, as the deck was showing some cracks, but the base was definately rocking under load. My guy pulled back the fabric headliner, dug it out from beneath, built it up with solid glass, redrilled the holes, reseated with 4200, added a bigger aluminum backing plate, and reglued the headliner. I have owned the boat for 7 years, and even when I got it, it had some spider cracking in the cockpit seats both fore and aft of the traveler. The moisture meter showed these areas as very wet for about 6-10 inches, both fore and aft, so we dug these out, found that it was balsa cored even where the traveler connects, so made these solid glass. This part of the repair did lead me to need to Awgrip the cockpit.
I appreciate the suggestions from everyone about rebedding everything that thru-bolts. How often do you suppose we should plan to do this? Every few years? What's the group recommendation?
leaks
Bob, just over drill the holes, fill them with an epoxy/highdensity filler mix, and re drill to the correct size. Even if you never caulked the hole and water went through, it would travel to the inside skin of the deck and never touch any balsa or plywood. We have done and are still in the process of doing this to 298. It's MUCH EASIER to do BEFORE you have a problem, not after. The added advantage is the the plug of filled epoxy makes a compression tube of sorts, which takes that load from the surrounding balsa. Even if the fittings were installed well at the factory, years of hard use will slightly [to greatly] compress the inside skin. This lets the fitting move and then the caulking seal is broken, so water gets in and does it's work. the over drill and fill solves both problems.
The lifelines base problem is just one more reason that I brought up the issue months ago about changing the class rules to allow the use of shorter stanchions, LESS LEVERAGE ! Boat builders should NEVER mount lifeline bases with any bolts going through balsa core, it's not going to stand the test of time for the reason given in the first paragraph, but they still continue to do it.
Dave
The lifelines base problem is just one more reason that I brought up the issue months ago about changing the class rules to allow the use of shorter stanchions, LESS LEVERAGE ! Boat builders should NEVER mount lifeline bases with any bolts going through balsa core, it's not going to stand the test of time for the reason given in the first paragraph, but they still continue to do it.
Dave
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marionette
water in core
Tom E
Making progress with repair estimates - $1200 to replace 2ft X 3 ft area of mast step , $800 for chain plate deck area, $500 for transom 1ft wide X 2 ft high - upper gudgeon to top rail. Are these prices reasonable?
Also, per you recommendations, will probably have the mast step professionally done from above, will probably repair chain plate and transom myself. What is your opinion if the repairs are done with a. layers of fiberglass cloth or b. synthetic coring material instead of balsa to remedy these issues?
The yard recommended using synthetic core instead of balsa, and I concur. But another post here used solid glass at the chainplate area.
Comments and suggestions welcome!
Making progress with repair estimates - $1200 to replace 2ft X 3 ft area of mast step , $800 for chain plate deck area, $500 for transom 1ft wide X 2 ft high - upper gudgeon to top rail. Are these prices reasonable?
Also, per you recommendations, will probably have the mast step professionally done from above, will probably repair chain plate and transom myself. What is your opinion if the repairs are done with a. layers of fiberglass cloth or b. synthetic coring material instead of balsa to remedy these issues?
The yard recommended using synthetic core instead of balsa, and I concur. But another post here used solid glass at the chainplate area.
Comments and suggestions welcome!
core
You will be better off with the stanchion base bolts going through NO core, but having the core tapered in close to the base edge, underneath, for added stiffness. Some people really abuse the lifelines and stanchions. No matter what you caulk them with or how tight you fasten them the bases will work a little over time and that tends to break the caulking seal and lets moisture creep down the bolts. If there's no core touching the bolts there is no way for the moisture to gets into it. If the base area is not rotten, just the balsa right around the bolt holes, you can dig the bad stuff out with a coat hanger bent into an L and a drill, let it dry and then fill the holes with epoxy/high density filler. Unfortunately, most folks don't fix rotten areas until they are big and exspensive.
$1,200 for the mast step repair the size that you state is a steal. I wouldn't do it for that! The other prices are good too, but then again, you get what you pay for. 9 times out of 10 the moisture goes WAY beyond the rotted area. If you or someone else repairs the area and traps that moisture in the basla you will probobly be looking at doing the repair again sometime down the road. In the real world of boat reapair it's better to pay more money once, repair a larger area, and be done with it.
You need to know what type of synthetic core material might be used in a repair. None of them have the compression or sheer strength of good old fashioned END GRAIN balsa core until you get up to the high density and VERY EXSPENSIVE types like those that can be used in power boat [outboard] transoms. There is nothing in the world wrong with balsa core if you just overdrill and fill the holes when you make a repair, or better yet, when the hardware is installed to begin with, AND use large enough washers or backing plates. It's great stuff and it's much cheaper than any core out there. You just have to work within it's limitations, like anything else.
Dave
$1,200 for the mast step repair the size that you state is a steal. I wouldn't do it for that! The other prices are good too, but then again, you get what you pay for. 9 times out of 10 the moisture goes WAY beyond the rotted area. If you or someone else repairs the area and traps that moisture in the basla you will probobly be looking at doing the repair again sometime down the road. In the real world of boat reapair it's better to pay more money once, repair a larger area, and be done with it.
You need to know what type of synthetic core material might be used in a repair. None of them have the compression or sheer strength of good old fashioned END GRAIN balsa core until you get up to the high density and VERY EXSPENSIVE types like those that can be used in power boat [outboard] transoms. There is nothing in the world wrong with balsa core if you just overdrill and fill the holes when you make a repair, or better yet, when the hardware is installed to begin with, AND use large enough washers or backing plates. It's great stuff and it's much cheaper than any core out there. You just have to work within it's limitations, like anything else.
Dave
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marionette
wet core replacement
Thanks Dave! THe guy giving me the estimates has been around quite a while, and is a well known racer on the Chesapeake. I will most likely give him the deck mast step job and tackle the chain plate and tansom areas myself. It's a shame to have this problem get away from the previous owner, so we're still negotiating and will probably end up around 7K, no trailer, decent sails and rebuilt inboard.
All in all, you get what you pay for and this can be a good performing boat - perhaps should rename her "ugly duck"
All in all, you get what you pay for and this can be a good performing boat - perhaps should rename her "ugly duck"
used boat
The boat that I'm partners in needed blister repair and the mast step/forward deck area repaired. The owner had paid $11,500 for the whole kit and cabootle [including a trailer and slip], so he got the boat for a very good price too. I told him that for half ownership in the boat, I would do the needed repairs, repaint and make new rags too. Back then it was a good deal for both of us. The repairs have now snowballed to the point that if he had to pay me for them, he could have bought the boat again. So, I am coming out on the short end of the stick now but we will probobly sell the boat in a few years and it will be one of THE nicest 7.9's in existence and should bring a good price!