Had a race Friday night and conditions were real gusty. Rain squalls in the area.
Steady 15/16Kts with gust to 30kts. We had full crew of 6, 1025Lbs. sailing with class jib and full main.
After all my years of 7.9 sailing, I still don't handle these conditions well.
Tried pulling the traveler up, no vang, sheet eased. better control, but not fast.
What works for others who sail in the breeze?
Gusty sailing
Moderators: sderby, Tim Bosma, Tom Elsen
already covered
dave
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 131
Location: Little Rock
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
"Martin, the questions that you ask are nebulous. There are no exact spots to set such things because of differences in mast rake, sail cut, halyard tension, etc. You trim the sails on all keelboats pretty similarly, but most boats also have a few idiosyncrasies to them. Although I'm not a big proponent of tuning guides, that would be a good place to start.
Very basically, when sailing upwind in any wind strength on most any keelboat in anything but heavy air, set the jib car so that as you trim the sail it touches the spreader and the chainplate at the same time [as long as they are both the same distance from the mast]. This is of course too tight, but it tells you that the leech and the foot are very close to balanced and usually results in a fast leech profile when eased to the correct trim, be that 1", 2" or 6" from the spreader tip. It all depends on wind strength and waves/no waves. With this trim you should see very slight wrinkles coming from the luff of the Genoa/jib. If not, adjust the halyard accordingly. Same with the car, adjust fore or aft from there [if needed] according to the same things. You can do the upper/lower tell-tail breaking thing if it makes you happy but most well cut sails will break high/inside when really trimmed fast, and what I just told you will probobly get you going faster than trying to get an "even" break in the tell-tails. For a fine tune, set the cars slightly different on either tack, sheet the main so that the top tell-tail is stalling about 50-70% of the time [again, depending on all of the above] and adjust the traveler car so that the boom is on the true centerline of the boat, or wherever it takes to keep the boat on it's feet and pointing well without pinching too much. Check the top leech tell-tail again and adjust sheet trim if needed. Don't forget that the backstay and vang are your gearshift and the mainsheet/traveler are the accelerater. When in doubt, pull harder on both [vang/backstay]. The boat will tell you when you have the right combination, or too much of one or the other or both. Most sailors don't pull anywhere near hard enough on the vang/backstay as the wind builds. Don't be afraid to try. Also, most sailors pull on the cunningham WAY too much, try to stay off of it. Having the draft back in the main and a nice flat entry is a fast, high pointing way to sail. The luff of the main should also now have some [mostly horizontal] wrinkles in it, mostly in the bottom half to third of the sail. Same drill. If not, adjust the halyard accordingly and start over. Get in the groove upwind and check your speed. Now tack without touching the mainsheet. set the traveler car in the exact spot on the opposite side and set the jib the same as you also had it. Check your speed again. Assuming [and this is assuming alot!] that your mast is in the middle of the boat, is tuned the same on both tacks, your keel isn't offset to one side or the other, you and your crew are sitting in the same spots as before and hiking as before [etc] you will see a difference in boat speed from one side to the other. Doing this back and forth can really dial in the trim. Also, use a GPS if you have one. Knot meters are notoriously inaccurate from one tack to another unless they are mounted in the exact centerline of the boat AND the paddle wheel is straight fore and aft.
Going downwind just set the traveller car in the center and forget about it, the vang is what's controlling the leech profile. If it's really light you will be reaching downwind and this may not work because sometimes you'll have to pull the traveller to weather some so that the main luff is breaking evenly from top to bottom with the chute trimmed.
Changing from the Genoa to the jib depends on too much to even go into, but mainly how many crew you have, how much they weigh and how hard they hike! Combine that with your sailing style and experience and how hard you and the crew pull on things and it's just too much to put a number on. One thing I can tell you is to NEVER reef the main on a fractionally rigged boat with a long boom until you have gone to your smallest jib. The boat may feel good to you but those who are doing it right will clean your clock!!!
I will leave the PHRF politics for someone else.
Dave"
P.S. The whole point is that you REALLY have to pull on the vang and backstay to get the main to blade out but then you must also stand up in the cockpit and use your leg muscles to get the main leech working again. I'm a fairly big, strong guy and there's no way that I can get the leech tight enough to make the sail work like it's suppose to with just my arms, especially sitting outboard. The same thing goes for the vang. It takes an incredible amount of tension to induce lower mast bend with the vang, which blades the bottom third of the main out and lets you get into overdrive, even with a really powerful vang. Heaven forbid if your vang control only goes to a cleat or clutch on the doghouse. This is a totally useles position for a very important control. Any one or two of these done without the other[s] and you'll never get out of third gear and the boat will just continually want to round up OR if you are trimming as you described with the traveller up and the main dumped you may even have lee helm and then the boat gets really unresponsive and you just start to slide sideways, go even slower, and then the next gust makes things even worse and will continue to until you start shifting gears and blading things out AND reducing the angle of attack on the sails.
Hope that this help you out.
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 131
Location: Little Rock
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post
"Martin, the questions that you ask are nebulous. There are no exact spots to set such things because of differences in mast rake, sail cut, halyard tension, etc. You trim the sails on all keelboats pretty similarly, but most boats also have a few idiosyncrasies to them. Although I'm not a big proponent of tuning guides, that would be a good place to start.
Very basically, when sailing upwind in any wind strength on most any keelboat in anything but heavy air, set the jib car so that as you trim the sail it touches the spreader and the chainplate at the same time [as long as they are both the same distance from the mast]. This is of course too tight, but it tells you that the leech and the foot are very close to balanced and usually results in a fast leech profile when eased to the correct trim, be that 1", 2" or 6" from the spreader tip. It all depends on wind strength and waves/no waves. With this trim you should see very slight wrinkles coming from the luff of the Genoa/jib. If not, adjust the halyard accordingly. Same with the car, adjust fore or aft from there [if needed] according to the same things. You can do the upper/lower tell-tail breaking thing if it makes you happy but most well cut sails will break high/inside when really trimmed fast, and what I just told you will probobly get you going faster than trying to get an "even" break in the tell-tails. For a fine tune, set the cars slightly different on either tack, sheet the main so that the top tell-tail is stalling about 50-70% of the time [again, depending on all of the above] and adjust the traveler car so that the boom is on the true centerline of the boat, or wherever it takes to keep the boat on it's feet and pointing well without pinching too much. Check the top leech tell-tail again and adjust sheet trim if needed. Don't forget that the backstay and vang are your gearshift and the mainsheet/traveler are the accelerater. When in doubt, pull harder on both [vang/backstay]. The boat will tell you when you have the right combination, or too much of one or the other or both. Most sailors don't pull anywhere near hard enough on the vang/backstay as the wind builds. Don't be afraid to try. Also, most sailors pull on the cunningham WAY too much, try to stay off of it. Having the draft back in the main and a nice flat entry is a fast, high pointing way to sail. The luff of the main should also now have some [mostly horizontal] wrinkles in it, mostly in the bottom half to third of the sail. Same drill. If not, adjust the halyard accordingly and start over. Get in the groove upwind and check your speed. Now tack without touching the mainsheet. set the traveler car in the exact spot on the opposite side and set the jib the same as you also had it. Check your speed again. Assuming [and this is assuming alot!] that your mast is in the middle of the boat, is tuned the same on both tacks, your keel isn't offset to one side or the other, you and your crew are sitting in the same spots as before and hiking as before [etc] you will see a difference in boat speed from one side to the other. Doing this back and forth can really dial in the trim. Also, use a GPS if you have one. Knot meters are notoriously inaccurate from one tack to another unless they are mounted in the exact centerline of the boat AND the paddle wheel is straight fore and aft.
Going downwind just set the traveller car in the center and forget about it, the vang is what's controlling the leech profile. If it's really light you will be reaching downwind and this may not work because sometimes you'll have to pull the traveller to weather some so that the main luff is breaking evenly from top to bottom with the chute trimmed.
Changing from the Genoa to the jib depends on too much to even go into, but mainly how many crew you have, how much they weigh and how hard they hike! Combine that with your sailing style and experience and how hard you and the crew pull on things and it's just too much to put a number on. One thing I can tell you is to NEVER reef the main on a fractionally rigged boat with a long boom until you have gone to your smallest jib. The boat may feel good to you but those who are doing it right will clean your clock!!!
I will leave the PHRF politics for someone else.
Dave"
P.S. The whole point is that you REALLY have to pull on the vang and backstay to get the main to blade out but then you must also stand up in the cockpit and use your leg muscles to get the main leech working again. I'm a fairly big, strong guy and there's no way that I can get the leech tight enough to make the sail work like it's suppose to with just my arms, especially sitting outboard. The same thing goes for the vang. It takes an incredible amount of tension to induce lower mast bend with the vang, which blades the bottom third of the main out and lets you get into overdrive, even with a really powerful vang. Heaven forbid if your vang control only goes to a cleat or clutch on the doghouse. This is a totally useles position for a very important control. Any one or two of these done without the other[s] and you'll never get out of third gear and the boat will just continually want to round up OR if you are trimming as you described with the traveller up and the main dumped you may even have lee helm and then the boat gets really unresponsive and you just start to slide sideways, go even slower, and then the next gust makes things even worse and will continue to until you start shifting gears and blading things out AND reducing the angle of attack on the sails.
Hope that this help you out.
Here's my setup:
Backstay max on. Genoa Halyard max on. Main halyard max on. Cunningham max on. (Gotta pull the max draft forward in the sails, it moves the center of effort forward and will help you steer).
Jib trim should be normal. Get it to the standard position on your spreader (or however your trimmer trims it).
Mainsail trim in this stuff tends to be the key for me. Max sheet - many times I'll have myself and the crewman forward crank in on my 6:1 mainsheet. On these boats, the mainsheet really helps to tighten up the forestay - and you want a tight forestay when the breeze is on. Once your mainsheet is set, don't touch it again.
Basically - you just play the traveler. A LOT. The person playing it should be using it to moderate heel and helm. Basically, they are balancing the boat so you aren't using a ton of helm.
In the light stuff, bring the traveler up to keep the boat powered up. In the gusts, don't be afraid to completely dump the traveler. If the wind is steady and you're overpowered, bring the traveler up until the back edge of the main is barely working - just to keep it from pounding the snot out of itself by flogging. If it's really honking you may need to rag the entire thing at times - remember that you can't let the traveler out too fast.
What you don't want to do is have an over-zealous traveler UP. That will cause you to round up, then they'll ease, you'll round down, and so on. You're better off keeping the main barely working and then steering to the jib when it's really blowing.
It's fine to blow the traveler early, and perhaps more than you really need. You won't lose all that much speed - you'll lose more fighting the mainsail trim with your helm if the main is too far up.
If your mainsheet trimmer can't tune into the heel of the boat and your helm position, you're going to be in trouble. In fact you may simply want to tell him to watch your tiller position, and tell him when it's higher than a certain spot, he needs to ease.
Backstay max on. Genoa Halyard max on. Main halyard max on. Cunningham max on. (Gotta pull the max draft forward in the sails, it moves the center of effort forward and will help you steer).
Jib trim should be normal. Get it to the standard position on your spreader (or however your trimmer trims it).
Mainsail trim in this stuff tends to be the key for me. Max sheet - many times I'll have myself and the crewman forward crank in on my 6:1 mainsheet. On these boats, the mainsheet really helps to tighten up the forestay - and you want a tight forestay when the breeze is on. Once your mainsheet is set, don't touch it again.
Basically - you just play the traveler. A LOT. The person playing it should be using it to moderate heel and helm. Basically, they are balancing the boat so you aren't using a ton of helm.
In the light stuff, bring the traveler up to keep the boat powered up. In the gusts, don't be afraid to completely dump the traveler. If the wind is steady and you're overpowered, bring the traveler up until the back edge of the main is barely working - just to keep it from pounding the snot out of itself by flogging. If it's really honking you may need to rag the entire thing at times - remember that you can't let the traveler out too fast.
What you don't want to do is have an over-zealous traveler UP. That will cause you to round up, then they'll ease, you'll round down, and so on. You're better off keeping the main barely working and then steering to the jib when it's really blowing.
It's fine to blow the traveler early, and perhaps more than you really need. You won't lose all that much speed - you'll lose more fighting the mainsail trim with your helm if the main is too far up.
If your mainsheet trimmer can't tune into the heel of the boat and your helm position, you're going to be in trouble. In fact you may simply want to tell him to watch your tiller position, and tell him when it's higher than a certain spot, he needs to ease.
Tom Line
Hull 421
Grrr...
Hull 421
Grrr...
Tom, we sail pretty much the same except that I trim and drive and I don't get as carried away on the cunningham, but that's with my sails.
From 1990 to 1992 I skippered a Beneteau 305. 30' and 8,400 lbs. The boat had a midboom traveler and sheet so it's impossible to drive and trim and do both with any success. The owner was an older gent and he trimmed the main and traveler for me. The first year or so [although we won the overall] he and I weren't really clicking because I was having to tell him when to do what. I had been giving him the same advice as you on the trim, to watch the tiller and move the traveler accordingly. Once he got that down we were a great team. I hardly ever had to say anything to him except for "great job"!
I also believe in setting the sheet and leaving it alone. Not only is the tight leech what's making the boat point but constantly easing and trimming makes it very hard to find a fast groove AND wears the trimmer out! Learning to steer without oversteering while setting the sails the way that we both describe is very fast upwind in a blow.
From 1990 to 1992 I skippered a Beneteau 305. 30' and 8,400 lbs. The boat had a midboom traveler and sheet so it's impossible to drive and trim and do both with any success. The owner was an older gent and he trimmed the main and traveler for me. The first year or so [although we won the overall] he and I weren't really clicking because I was having to tell him when to do what. I had been giving him the same advice as you on the trim, to watch the tiller and move the traveler accordingly. Once he got that down we were a great team. I hardly ever had to say anything to him except for "great job"!
I also believe in setting the sheet and leaving it alone. Not only is the tight leech what's making the boat point but constantly easing and trimming makes it very hard to find a fast groove AND wears the trimmer out! Learning to steer without oversteering while setting the sails the way that we both describe is very fast upwind in a blow.
-
Fred Chadsey
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2003 5:43 pm
- Location: gulf shores, al.
Gusty winds
I really enjoyed reading all the above tips !! On Kaotic we have a different approach. Winds in 20 to 25kts w/ gusts to 30, we sail with 135 baberhauled, we can beat polars and the boat is very controlable. We haven't seen the need to ever use the blade (of course we only race PHRF). Note that a barberhauled working or 135 in very heavy conditions opens slot w/ less backwind into main and plows thru waves better. Note our headsails are always barberhauled accept on beats. Mainsail is very flat ! We always race "Vang-sheeting" unless the winds are less than 10kts. This requires a very good mainsail trimmer, which I have. I realize that most of your readers race class legal. I wish we had one design here to do same, but if we didn't take advantage of PHRF rules we'd have tough time w/ j's. Racing in Mobile Bay is competitive, but one design is most fun.
Thanks, Fred
Thanks, Fred
S2 7.9 hull # 467
Pulling the jib leads out, even to the rail, is THE most under utilized technique for REALLY making any boat go upwind in a blow. Everyone thinks that because the sheeting angle is "so" wide that the boat won't point when the exact opposite is true. When the conditions warrant, using barberhaulers makes the boat so much faster upwind that any "loss" in apparent sailing angle is more than made up for by DECREASING the true angle to the wind that the boat is making over the bottom which increases upwind VMG. Sometimes the true angle will go down some depending on sea conditions but because of much less leeway the VMG still goes up.
There are two main reasons for this and they work to compliment each other. The first and most apparent is that the angle of attack of the sails to centerline of the boat becomes wider. This means that the total driving force of the sails is pulling the boat in a more forward direction than sideways, when compared to a tighter sheeting angle. The second reason is that because of the first, the boat is moving faster and heeling less in the puffs which makes steering so much easier that it's much less difficult to keep the boat on it's feet and in the groove. It's a win/win situation.
There are two main reasons for this and they work to compliment each other. The first and most apparent is that the angle of attack of the sails to centerline of the boat becomes wider. This means that the total driving force of the sails is pulling the boat in a more forward direction than sideways, when compared to a tighter sheeting angle. The second reason is that because of the first, the boat is moving faster and heeling less in the puffs which makes steering so much easier that it's much less difficult to keep the boat on it's feet and in the groove. It's a win/win situation.