If anyone is interested in listening, let me know and I'll continue..........................................
Starting at the "wrong" end.
Moderators: sderby, Tim Bosma, Tom Elsen
Starting at the "wrong" end.
Okay fellow 7.9 sailors [you gals too!], the Class Championships are coming up fast. I want to help as many folks as I can to change their way of thinking about starts and where they should REALLY be when the gun goes off.
If anyone is interested in listening, let me know and I'll continue..........................................
If anyone is interested in listening, let me know and I'll continue..........................................
Re: Starting at the "wrong" end.
I'm listening. Did you ever get a reponse to your offer to submit columns?
Bill
#376
Fantasy
#376
Fantasy
Re: Starting at the "wrong" end.
Not from the good folks who run this forum............................... but I did get positive feedback from two forum members who have these two great sites: http://rockhallracing.com/ and http://hottamaleracing.com/links.php
Re: Starting at the "wrong" end.
I followed the discussion and I have read your stuff on Hottamale. Went on Rock hall, but I had already read your articles.
I am very interested in your thought on wrong end as my local fleet is almost all bargers. I always start down the line or at the pin. They say [quote] a colision at sea can ruin your whole day [quote] and I race for enjoyment, not blood.
I am very interested in your thought on wrong end as my local fleet is almost all bargers. I always start down the line or at the pin. They say [quote] a colision at sea can ruin your whole day [quote] and I race for enjoyment, not blood.
Bill
#376
Fantasy
#376
Fantasy
Re: Starting at the "wrong" end.
Dave,
thanks for the new files from coaching. I have been workingon my wife e-shop and haven't put them up yet.
as to starts, we use the following rules:
1. clean air
2. hit the line running (at the gun, not 3 seconds later!)
and
3. clean air.
an opening with clean air can easily overcome a bad start at the favored end.
thanks for the new files from coaching. I have been workingon my wife e-shop and haven't put them up yet.
as to starts, we use the following rules:
1. clean air
2. hit the line running (at the gun, not 3 seconds later!)
and
3. clean air.
an opening with clean air can easily overcome a bad start at the favored end.
Re: Starting at the "wrong" end.
Hey there Tim, I figured that you were just sore at me for the remarks that I made about how many engineer and Ph. D types take something that is a basically a fairly simple undertaking or process and then over complicate it! 
As I told you, I meant no disrespect to all of the engineers and Ph. D's out there, it's just a personal observation. It may BE a generalization, but as far as I've seen it's a true one! The same thing could be generalized about uneducated people [no higher education] like me as it pertains to this or that and there would be some truth [and not] to that too. There are ALWAYS exceptions.
My point about "starting at the wrong end" is something that I've written about frequently over the last many years but nobody seems to get . I don't disagree with your 3 points to a certain extent, but clean air and speed at the gun won't do you a bit of good if you're going the wrong way or you can't tack and go the way that you want to. ALL of the stuff ever written about starting [except by me] says to start at or near the upwind end of the line if there is much bias or favor from one end to the other. There are two HUGE holes in this philosophy in oscillating winds, which is what we are sailing in as often as not, especially on lakes.......................... even the Great Lakes! The first and most glaring thing to point out is that because of all that HAS been written and preached over the years about starting at the weather end, 80% of the fleet is going to be there!!!!!
That drops each boat's chances of making a really good start dramatically, just because of crowding and ego matching. One note here. By weather end, I'm talking about the end that actually IS to weather [upwind] of the other, NOT the end that's on your "weather" side as a few very good sailors write about.
One of the most important pieces of information that I ever gleaned from a sailing writer came from Dr. Stuart Walker in one of his many books. To paraphrase: In oscillating winds, stay on the lifted tack [to the median] ahead and to leeward of your competition, heading toward the next expected shift. Dr. Walker differentiates between heading away from and back to the rhumbline and this of course has merit, but I choose to keep the intellectual clutter to a minimum. This of course means that the next expected shift will be a knock. Depending on the degree of the shift and the leverage between yourself and the boats behind and/or to windward, this will allow you to tack and cross those boats while at the same time you are also STAYING on the lifted tack [to the median] ahead and the leeward of you competition, heading toward the next expected shift.
With this fairly simple concept in mind: If the line is set basically square to the median wind [or even slightly biased one way or the other] and either end becomes noticeably upwind because of temporary oscillations, the ONLY way to take advantage of and continue to implement this strategy is to start at the "wrong" end, on the lifted tack [to the median] ahead and the leeward of you competition, heading toward the next expected shift!!!!!! The second huge plus is that there is usually almost nobody there because the "good" sailors are all piled up at the "weather" end, so even if there are a few boats around you, they will invariably be those folks who may be more timid or unsure of their boat handling/rules skills and started late and away from the fray, the ubiquitous "marshmallow"!!
No matter where you start or how much boats speed and clean air you have, missing the FIRST shift will/may put you back in the cheap seats and then you wind up spending the whole race just trying to find the LEAST dirty air and also sailing other peoples races instead of your own. This is NOT the way to have a great day on the water, let alone a great regatta!
Before continuing I will let this digest, and as always I expect more than a few nay sayers to pop up. I USE this starting technique frequently. Those whom I sail against meet me in the parking lot after the days racing and are shaking their heads wondering how in the heck I can start on the "wrong" end and then cross the whole fleet on the first tack, usually less than 1 minute into the race! Are these folks as experienced in racing sailboats as me? Certainly to usually not, but geometry and physics don't change because of ones abilities. Sound tactics are incredibly simple when you have clean air and are ahead of all/most of the fleet, but you get and maintain the clean air by hitting the first shift after the start!
As I told you, I meant no disrespect to all of the engineers and Ph. D's out there, it's just a personal observation. It may BE a generalization, but as far as I've seen it's a true one! The same thing could be generalized about uneducated people [no higher education] like me as it pertains to this or that and there would be some truth [and not] to that too. There are ALWAYS exceptions.My point about "starting at the wrong end" is something that I've written about frequently over the last many years but nobody seems to get . I don't disagree with your 3 points to a certain extent, but clean air and speed at the gun won't do you a bit of good if you're going the wrong way or you can't tack and go the way that you want to. ALL of the stuff ever written about starting [except by me] says to start at or near the upwind end of the line if there is much bias or favor from one end to the other. There are two HUGE holes in this philosophy in oscillating winds, which is what we are sailing in as often as not, especially on lakes.......................... even the Great Lakes! The first and most glaring thing to point out is that because of all that HAS been written and preached over the years about starting at the weather end, 80% of the fleet is going to be there!!!!!
That drops each boat's chances of making a really good start dramatically, just because of crowding and ego matching. One note here. By weather end, I'm talking about the end that actually IS to weather [upwind] of the other, NOT the end that's on your "weather" side as a few very good sailors write about. One of the most important pieces of information that I ever gleaned from a sailing writer came from Dr. Stuart Walker in one of his many books. To paraphrase: In oscillating winds, stay on the lifted tack [to the median] ahead and to leeward of your competition, heading toward the next expected shift. Dr. Walker differentiates between heading away from and back to the rhumbline and this of course has merit, but I choose to keep the intellectual clutter to a minimum. This of course means that the next expected shift will be a knock. Depending on the degree of the shift and the leverage between yourself and the boats behind and/or to windward, this will allow you to tack and cross those boats while at the same time you are also STAYING on the lifted tack [to the median] ahead and the leeward of you competition, heading toward the next expected shift.
With this fairly simple concept in mind: If the line is set basically square to the median wind [or even slightly biased one way or the other] and either end becomes noticeably upwind because of temporary oscillations, the ONLY way to take advantage of and continue to implement this strategy is to start at the "wrong" end, on the lifted tack [to the median] ahead and the leeward of you competition, heading toward the next expected shift!!!!!!
The second huge plus is that there is usually almost nobody there because the "good" sailors are all piled up at the "weather" end, so even if there are a few boats around you, they will invariably be those folks who may be more timid or unsure of their boat handling/rules skills and started late and away from the fray, the ubiquitous "marshmallow"!! No matter where you start or how much boats speed and clean air you have, missing the FIRST shift will/may put you back in the cheap seats and then you wind up spending the whole race just trying to find the LEAST dirty air and also sailing other peoples races instead of your own. This is NOT the way to have a great day on the water, let alone a great regatta!
Before continuing I will let this digest, and as always I expect more than a few nay sayers to pop up. I USE this starting technique frequently. Those whom I sail against meet me in the parking lot after the days racing and are shaking their heads wondering how in the heck I can start on the "wrong" end and then cross the whole fleet on the first tack, usually less than 1 minute into the race! Are these folks as experienced in racing sailboats as me? Certainly to usually not, but geometry and physics don't change because of ones abilities. Sound tactics are incredibly simple when you have clean air and are ahead of all/most of the fleet, but you get and maintain the clean air by hitting the first shift after the start!
Re: Starting at the "wrong" end.
ok, so, how do I find this glorious "next expected shift" when I am out on the water?
Re: Starting at the "wrong" end.
Tim, do I detect a note of sarcasm? It's easier than most people think if you don't try to make it too complicated. Just sail upwind for a while on either tack and see what the wind is doing! I don't use a compass and don't "time the shifts", it's not necessary............................ unless you have no horizon. I watch the shoreline or fixed points on the water in places like Galveston Bay. On large bodies of water you may have to watch the compass. All I want to know is if the oscillations are large or small, as in plus or minus 10 degrees or 30+ degrees. Don't laugh and roll your eyes: We regularly get plus or minus up to 45-50 degrees either way with a SE-SW wind! The other thing: the approximate length of time between shifts. Again, I don't time them, I just pay attention to how often my heading changes over maybe 5-10 minutes of sailing and then look at the length of the weather leg to be sailed. All I need to know is whether or not I'm sailing in oscillating conditions for the length of the leg being sailed, or maybe a persistent shift or even a geographic shift. Many times it's a combination and that can only be learned from more sailing. If I guess that the weather leg might take 15 minutes to complete and i had noticed more than 3+ shifts in that time I assume that I'm sailing in oscillating conditions and act just as I've described earlier. If I thought that there might be ANY chance of only 1-2 shifts coming through in that time I WOULD NOT start this way because in that case I MIGHT have to sail the leg using persistent shift strategy/tactics, which are totally opposite, or a combination of the 2-3 mentioned.
Before the start I will have decided what type of conditions I'm sailing in. I will have been paying attention to the flags on the RC boat and any other boats on the lake that may be upwind of our course sailing upwind, and what the wind is doing WAY upwind. If my judgement is that the leg will be sailed in oscillating conditions, the other two components to the start are the relative degree of the shifts [plus or minus] and the length of the line. Small oscillations means small leverage when the shift comes through and the opposite for large oscillations. Likewise, a long line means lots of leverage from one end to the other as it pertains to the relative positions of the boats at either end in a shift. The last part of the puzzle is to pay very close attention to what the wind is doing in the last 2-3 minutes before the gun so that it's possible to make a quick strategy change at the last second if needed, but that's usually not the case IF one has done all of the above. If the line is relatively long for the number of boats starting or the oscillations are large enough to gain the leverage needed on a short line, I go with my "wrong end" start.
You asked how you might find this glorious "next expected shift"? If your homework has you fairly convinced that you ARE sailing in oscillating conditions and you have been keeping tabs on the flags on the RC boat, pin and/or any boats that are up the course, you should know if you are in a right, left, or median phase. Before going further let me state that only a fool would say that they POSITIVELY know what the next shift will be! Sailing, especially on lakes, is a game of percentages. Nothing is ever 100%. Having said that, if observation has told me that the shifts are 5-7 minutes or thereabouts and one hasn't come through since the sequence began, I WOULD be expecting a shift not long after the starting gun. Likewise, If observation also tells me that the current phase of the wind is left, percentage sailing tells me that the "next expected shift" is going to be back to the right. It may only go to the median and then back left before it goes hard right again, but as long as you have a handle on what you think the next shift will do because of the things that I've mentioned being taken into account, you'll be right at least 75% of the time. If by chance the 25% happens and the shifts doesn't come through, just keep sailing fast and being patient. Don't get the willys and bail out, taking transoms. This will only get you out of phase and start that snowball rolling down the hill. The shift will eventually come through. If by chance it doesn't, that's sailboat racing, there are no guarantees!!!! Just think: The guys who win the America's Cup are only right about 75% of the time too!!!!
Before the start I will have decided what type of conditions I'm sailing in. I will have been paying attention to the flags on the RC boat and any other boats on the lake that may be upwind of our course sailing upwind, and what the wind is doing WAY upwind. If my judgement is that the leg will be sailed in oscillating conditions, the other two components to the start are the relative degree of the shifts [plus or minus] and the length of the line. Small oscillations means small leverage when the shift comes through and the opposite for large oscillations. Likewise, a long line means lots of leverage from one end to the other as it pertains to the relative positions of the boats at either end in a shift. The last part of the puzzle is to pay very close attention to what the wind is doing in the last 2-3 minutes before the gun so that it's possible to make a quick strategy change at the last second if needed, but that's usually not the case IF one has done all of the above. If the line is relatively long for the number of boats starting or the oscillations are large enough to gain the leverage needed on a short line, I go with my "wrong end" start.
You asked how you might find this glorious "next expected shift"? If your homework has you fairly convinced that you ARE sailing in oscillating conditions and you have been keeping tabs on the flags on the RC boat, pin and/or any boats that are up the course, you should know if you are in a right, left, or median phase. Before going further let me state that only a fool would say that they POSITIVELY know what the next shift will be! Sailing, especially on lakes, is a game of percentages. Nothing is ever 100%. Having said that, if observation has told me that the shifts are 5-7 minutes or thereabouts and one hasn't come through since the sequence began, I WOULD be expecting a shift not long after the starting gun. Likewise, If observation also tells me that the current phase of the wind is left, percentage sailing tells me that the "next expected shift" is going to be back to the right. It may only go to the median and then back left before it goes hard right again, but as long as you have a handle on what you think the next shift will do because of the things that I've mentioned being taken into account, you'll be right at least 75% of the time. If by chance the 25% happens and the shifts doesn't come through, just keep sailing fast and being patient. Don't get the willys and bail out, taking transoms. This will only get you out of phase and start that snowball rolling down the hill. The shift will eventually come through. If by chance it doesn't, that's sailboat racing, there are no guarantees!!!! Just think: The guys who win the America's Cup are only right about 75% of the time too!!!!