New minimum weight for inboards (discussion)

[Tom Elsen]

We have a suggestion to consider decreasing the class minimum weight of Inboard 7.9s. I think it's an interesting idea.

Note that some of the early IBs already have a tough time making the (existing) 4400lb minimum. That's a bit of a problem.

As an alternative, we could enable IBs to have larger main sails. Just an idea. The obvious downside here is that IBs and OBs could not trade main sails.

Thoughts? IB owners especially.

IBers please note --- How do you propose that we handle PHRF issues? If we change weight mins or sail size the IBs should be re-rated. (That is assuming you believe in fair play, which is unlike some members' experience in PHRF.)

[Ron Pool]

I don't think that boat speed is a big problem with IBs. With proper bottom prep, good sails, weight at 4400, and faired foils I believe an IB will do just fine. I think the present rules are fair from my experience. With solid strategy, good boat handling, and smart tactics along with boat prep stated above, an inboard will be competative. I would like to see Spike Boston in a well prepared IB. I think he would do well.

Ron Pool, Mischief (IB) 154

[Jim Kloss]

While lowering the weight minimum for inboards might make the boats that are already near the 4400 lb standard a little more competitive, it would actually hurt heavier boats (like mine) that can't make 4400 lbs stripped naked. If the goal is to get more inboards competing in class events, I'm afraid this proposal would be counterproductive.

As I've posted before, the slowest thing about my boat is (unfortunately) the skipper.

Jim Kloss
s/v Ambivalence
S2 7.9 #8

[Dave Grover]

Does everyone know that the ballast under the cabin sole is lighter in the inboard to compensate for the weight of the inboard engine? This makes the IB set on the same lines as the OB (other things being equal).

So any speed issue (everything else being equal) is dragging a prop, strut and shaft. I have seen well sailed IBs compete even or better with OBs.

As far as reducing the class minimum, what you get into is how to make the heaviest boats lighter (legally). This leaves the only way to equalize boats is to ballast the lighter ones. The class data on boat weights has some that are already heavier than the class requirement. Not a lot heavier. But if you lower the class requirement, those boats will be at a greater disadvantage.

I would argue that the prop, strut and shaft drag is only significant at very low speeds. And there are a lot of other ways to lose out on the race course.
Just make sure that your competitor makes more mistakes than you do.

[randy]

Im considering the purchase of a boat with an IB. Is there a track record of how IB do against outboards? Have IB's raced at any of the NOOD events?

[Jeff Bonvallet]

Fleet 22 has 6 IB and 5 OB. An IB (2 different ones) has won our fleet regatta 4 out of 9 times and an IB has won the Tuesday night racing series at least 5 years. In addition when we race PHRF and I get to remove my 250 pounds of lead, it seems to make no or little difference in our boat speed, except in very light air, and I have to give them 6 sec. per mile! I'm with Dave, It's crew work, bottom prep, sail trim and mistakes that win or lose races. I think tinkering with something that has worked for 20 + years is only going to open a unbelievable can of worms. Remember our problems a few years ago with sails?

Yes several IB's have sailed in the Chicago NOOD's. They do just fine! I'd take Spike in an IB!

Jeff

[Rudeman]

All things being equal, I would put my money on the O/B, but would conceed that a well sailed I/B will easily handle a lesser sailed O/B. That said, maye consider the approach of the J/29 class with fracs and M/H - they seperate the boats by 3 sec's/mile when racing O/D.

I would not recommend the change in main sail size - the extra area would force mandatory backstay mod's and you end up with a bigger breadbox.

[fleck]

Jeff,

Don’t take any of this personally…

Has it really worked for 20 years? Are major regattas( CCR or NOOD) getting an equal share of 23% IB's on the start line ( 1 in 5)? Has there been any IB National Champions? Do you know of an IB to win a NOOD? Even a windy one?

I admit when the wind is up the IB's can go head-to-head. But as soon as we start peeling crew off the windward rail, the differences really start to show up. There are other differences, but wind strength is the major factor. I have not seen, or heard, of a condition where the IB has a racing advantage over the OB.

The class realized this in the late 80’s and created the ‘Slade’ award which is awarded to the highest placing IB at the CCR. After 15 years, I think IB’s would rather have had another 100lbs instead of improved self esteem. Its also interesting than several names on the trophy now compete at the CCR with OB boats. Hmmmm.

Everyone will admit that the IB's are at a disadvantage in certain conditions (until discussions of weight changes), but never vice versa. Maybe something should be adjusted after 24 years of data.

The major factor is still the sailors skill. I’ll continue to bring my IB to any reggatta I can get to. But results should reflect sailor skill not wind strength. I'd love to see someone win the CCR on an IB to prove me wrong, no one has done so yet.

I still believe there is more equity to be achieved by increasing the weight difference. I think that somewhere between another 50-100lbs lighter would be a good change.

[Jeff Bonvallet]

If the issue is to try to get more IB's on the starting line... Keep in mind that, at least in our fleet, that most of the people who buy an IB simply are not interested in racing on a competitive level. No matter what we do they are not going to travel to any of the NOOD's or the CCR. They bought the IB to go cruising and maybe do a few of the weeknight races. It's a great boat, especially for those areas that have shallow water issues. We have several IB's that do not participate on a regular basis, and despite our bets efforts to entice them to join in, they are just not interested.

If you think 50 or 100 pounds will make a difference, go for it. Time will tell, but I don't think that it will make any difference in the number of IB's who participate in the major regatta's one way or another.


An IB took 3rd in the chicago NOOD's about 5 years ago.

[fleck]

Jeff,

I sorta agree.

If the IB was considered to be completely equal to the OB, racers could choose either boat. Maybe even get a boat that is now used casually into the hands of a serious racer. Currently you can find a really nice IB for much less than a comparable condition OB. I've talked to and seen posts for people looking for lower priced 7.9's, but they don't want an IB for racing.

Although, I think that the difference is often perceived to be worse than it actually is, there is a difference. The difference has been identified and attempts should be made to equalize the designs. The class should be fighting to retain every remaining 7.9 as an active racing boat.

As for the 2000 NOOD... You're right Split Decision took 3rd (it wasn't on the S2 7.9 site). Other than my boat, that's the only other IB ( that I've found) which has placed in a NOOD. Have you ever asked the owner of Split Decision if being an inboard has any influence on whether he travels or not? He is also on the Slade trophy so he has raced at the CCR. What are his feelings.

Again, not personal. Just glad to get people thinking about it.

[Jim Kloss]

Of course there's a difference between inboards and outboards. PHRF generally gives us inboard owners an extra 6 seconds / mile and that seems to be a fair approximation of the difference. Under some conditions those seconds are a gift; other times I'd like a lot more.

As I've said before, lowering the minimum weight for inboards wouldn't help boats like mine that can't make the current minimum anyway and would probably end up discouraging participation rather than increasing it.

How about onl;y inboards get Spike's newest sails? Or outboards have to drag their props in the water (locked in reverse) ? No, those probably aren't good ideas either.

If we somehow get more inboards racing, there will be more boat-to-boat competition and that will encourage participation more than a better chance at the fancy trophy. (And when the weather turns foul, it's really nice to push the button and start putt-putting for home!)

Jim Kloss
s/v Ambivalence
S2 7.9 #8 (IB)

[Jeff Bonvallet]

I checked the weight certs of the fleet 22 IB's and 4 of the 5 can't make the current weight minimum, 3 even with the cushions out. Split is the only one who needs to add weight, 10lbs.

Gary has traveled to several CCR's in the past few years, but it was a previous owner who won. I have not spoken with Gary since last fall, but I believe his traveling days are over. He has added a dodger and roller furling to his IB, and has been talking of a 32 footer for about a year now. He blames it on aging crew.

[broachin]

We had two now down to one out board S2 in my area (N'awlins) we have raced both of the inboards with BAD DOG and in 50 to 60 races we lost to them a handfull of times...these guys were not shmucks or inexpieianced sailors one guy was from I think Rio and was a national champion down there in several different classes (read as good sailor/racer)

the other guy here is a stady top 3 finisher in damn near every race he is in and has owned his boat for about 20 years. So he knows it well and is my biggest compition...

We are an inboard they are both outboards...i haven't had the time to come and compete in the national or KWRW races against the real good guys in this class...but I think what everyone has said is true...know your boat, your sail trim, boat prep and good tactics and I believe you will win as often as you get second...

I do plan to race KWRW and the following two races this coming year but have a problem casue I have not recieved anything from the class and my check had not been cashed as of yet...thought maybe they found out what an ass I cna be and decided not to let me in the group....LOL


will try again this year....

Macho Slavich