Ripped off by PHRF ?????

[Tom Elsen]

If your local PHRF committee issued a new policy requiring you to keep your board down at all times, but refused to re-rate your boat, please get in touch with me ASAP. Be sure to remove the 'NOSPAM' from my e-mail address.

[CAW]

Tom, could you elaborate on what has happened so far with regards to your post.

Thank you, Chris

[Tom Elsen]

Hi Chris

Would you please either register on the site or leave an email in your post and identify your boat. Thanks very much.

[ffoote]

Hi Tom,
Our PHRF org. did this to us after Laughing Sally broached/sank in the Detroit river with the board up. Lived with it for 2 years, challenged it and won! Let me know if anyone needs help with this. I have some data and a pretty good argument prepared.

Frank #122
smooth79@mnsi.net

[Tom Elsen]

Frank
Congratulations, great job!
Would you please elaborate on what grounds you filed your protest? I can see two, but wonder if you found another avenue.

Everyone - this is the kind of PHRF nonsense that makes sailing frustrating. It is plain to see that if you have a boat which is sailing under an established rating, a local committee should not be able to re-specify the yacht's equipment without rerating the boat. It would never work that way in reverse. You would always take a hit for an oversized kite or for a new keel & rudder.

[Steven Lewis]

Hi All, I sail a 7.9 #383 with Ashley Anderson with the Mendota Yacht Club in Madison, WI. Question: What is the PHRF for a outboard 7.9, board down, board adjustable? PHRF for a INBOARD 7.9? Local YC adjustments for inland lakes (Lake Michigan sailed boats excluded)?

Thank you for your assistance.

Steven Lewis
Would you please either register on the site or leave an active email in your post. Thank you. Site Admin.

[Jeff Bonvallet]

LMPHRF for an outboard is 165, for an inboard it's 171. They require the board to stay down at all times, but this has only been stated orally and is not on our certificates.

Why not come to the Chicago NOOD's and the CCR in Menominee this year? You don't have to deal with any handicap system when you race one-design. We'd love to see some of the Madison 7.9's get more involved in the class.

[Jason Raaum]

I just wanted to point out that S2 7.9s that I've encountered that race in places other than Lake Michigan (Lake Pepin, MN; St. Croix, WI; Minnetonka, MN) have a PHRF rating of 168, not 165. Does anyone know where/why this difference came from? They are allowed to raise their centerboards, so it's not a case of a penalty for that.

Jason

[Mark Gutteridge]

One night after our local Wed.night MORC race i wa sasked why I could raise my centreboard.The question was not asked in a malicious manner.I replied that I did not know.
This made me curious and I got on the MORC International site and read their rules.Their rule staes that you must race with the board dsown if the centre board exceeds 50 % of the absolute ballast.
We are within that limitation!The board weighs 600 #s and the balast is 1750 #s.
We took a 30 knot broach last year in the fall and the Slam popped up nicely.Everybody on the rail was soaked but the boat was fine.
Hope this helps and not hinders.
Chimo;
Guts (Hunting Party #448)

[Jason Raaum]

Mark,

Was your centerboard up or down during the 30 knot broach? If it was up, that's good to know, althought I have noticed it written before that the 7.9 is self-righting even with the board up.

Jason

[Mark Gutteridge]

I may be a little crazy but not stupid .The board was down.
Chimo;
Guts.

[You know who]

This past weekend a J24 sank in 70 feet of water on Lake Minnetonka, just west of Minneapolis, MN. Fortunately, all crew were rescued and are unhurt.

Here are details of the incident: The boat crew was able and experienced. Winds were slightly above 20 knots at the time with occasional gusts above 25 knots. Waves were less than 2 ft, rolling NW to SE. The boat was sailing as designed in normal configuration (keel down) when it broached. The broach laid the mast to windward and the boat shipped water. Crew were unable to turn the stricken craft with bow to the wind. Consequently, waves pushed the mast down hard and the boat turtled. It rolled back to its side but was unable to be towed safely.

Very clearly, ALL PHRF boards should take action based on this incident. The J24, after some 25 years of great sailing is now proved to be dangerously unstable. This condition should be addressed immediately. I suggest requiring the boat be sailed, not as designed, rather as PHRF designates.

The following modifications to the existing (obviously unsafe) design have been suggested by a team of talented, wise and unbiased naval architects. Although these professionals race boats other than the J24, they obviously have ONLY the interests of safe boating at heart. Here are their recommendations:
- J24s shall install truck-tire inner tube flotation devices the entire length of the deck joint
- An additional 500 lbs of lead shall be bolted to the bottom of the keel
- A 4 cubic foot Hobie style flotation-dirigible shall be flown from the top of the J24 mast at all times
- Spinnakers shall be no larger than the 505-class

Of course, and since this is done in the name of 'safety', there will be no change in the rating for the boat.

Sounds absurd.......oh wait, no it doesn't!

The broach and sinking is not a joke. The response of your local PHRF board might be.

[absolut]

Tom,
Although it almost a year since you posted, the board question raises again. With a new handicap chairman in our club the centrboard issue has come to a head. Until now the club would not address the issue unless someone protested my boat, now the Rating Certificate will compell me to race with the board down at all times, no mention of a change in handicap.
Any help with this issue will be appreciated.
Stev Penny, ABSOLUT, Hull # 70

[Tom Elsen]

OK, here we go again with this nonsense. It’s what I hate about sailboat racing – CLOWNS! (Steve did you save all of the documentation we sent to your sailmaker for the 2003 go-‘round of this problem?)

First, all local PHRF boards have a lot of ‘flexibility’. Essentially they can do whatever they want as long as they follow procedure. That’s something with which you’ll (sadly) need to become familiar. Read you local PHRF handbook and make certain you understand it.

Second let’s set the record straight…..

(A) - The “Safety” issue is a ruse. Here’s why -
~ The S2 7.9 passed the IMS limit of positive stability test early in its existence
~ The IMS calculated limit of positive stability is just over 105 degrees for an inboard. The 7.9 outboard should perform even better, at about 108 degrees. That’s the same as A Jeppesen designed X-95!
~ The 7.9 passed the rigorous MORC self-righting test wherein a fully rigged boat had it’s bagged mainsail and #1 genoa held at the top of their respective hoists by their halyards. The daggerboard was FULLY RETRACTED. The boat was hauled down until the masthead (and both sail bags) touched the water. Passing the test required that the yacht would self-right in this condition: It passed.
~ The +/- stability curve ratio is just under 1.6, which indicates that the boat should self-right up to approximately 113 degrees. That’s 23 degrees beyond horizontal!
~ Want to guess the IMS limit of positive stability for a J24?
A bit over 90 degrees, one of the worst ever rated by IMS. The +/- curve is 100. It’s a fine boat and a great class. No criticism, just a fact.

(B) – Existing PHRF ratings incorporate a retractable board
~ Since 1982 the 7.9 has been rated by PHRF in its standard configuration – retractable board.
~ Of course even the most modestly-gray-matter-endowed know that PHRF is an OBSERVED handicap. The 7.9 has been observed, and rated for 22 years, as it was designed….sailing board up downwind.

(C) – A ‘Board down’ requirement is a de-facto respecification of the boat’s equipment.
~ If the PHRF guys want to re-specify the yacht (in this case they have specified a non-retractable board, as opposed to the retractable board that is standard equipment), in a manner which changes the sailing potential of the yacht, THEY MUST RE-RATE THE BOAT. This means that they must give notice, then convene a hearing. And they must provide the data (typically corrected times of race results, VPP data, comparable ratings etc.) which supports the new rating. The onus is on them, but it’s a little bit like going to tax court….you’d better be prepared.

(D) – Your PHRF guys are on a VERY dangerous, and may I say stupid, liability slope.
~ They have forced you to sail the 7.9 in a non-standard configuration. This is always done in the name of safety, since there is no other practical way to force it through the system. So they alone bear responsibility for you sailing your boat in a manner other than the way it was designed.
~ Any half-wit knows that all daggerboard boats become quite unstable and quite difficult to control downwind with a keel full of goop. That is REALLY dangerous.
~ “Send lawyers guns and money, dad to get me out of this mess…” Your PHRF guys will be singing that song in court when somebody gets hurt because they created a problem.

[absolut]

Tom, Yes to your query about the past info-we saved all. To take note, last year John Collins(PHRF Committee)emailed that it is up to local clubs to make determination, this year he states it has been in the rules for ten years-safety issue. I will updating after my meeting with handicap chairman.
Absolut