OK....Let's talk nuts and bolts here. Hard on the wind with medium air... 10-15, where do you guys set the genoa sheet traveler? The edge of the cabin, edge of the last window??? Where do you guys run your main traveler? At the windward seat edge? Same for down wind??? When do you go to 110 vs. leaving the 155 up and reefing the main? What is the most common practice for PHRF committees on adjusting the handicapp
time to account for running a roller furler and when switching to the 110.
Thanks,
Martin
SAIL TRIM
Moderators: sderby, Tim Bosma, Tom Elsen
Martin, the questions that you ask are nebulous. There are no exact spots to set such things because of differences in mast rake, sail cut, halyard tension, etc. You trim the sails on all keelboats pretty similarly, but most boats also have a few idiosyncrasies to them. Although I'm not a big proponent of tuning guides, that would be a good place to start.
Very basically, when sailing upwind in any wind strength on most any keelboat in anything but heavy air, set the jib car so that as you trim the sail it touches the spreader and the chainplate at the same time [as long as they are both the same distance from the mast]. This is of course too tight, but it tells you that the leech and the foot are very close to balanced and usually results in a fast leech profile when eased to the correct trim, be that 1", 2" or 6" from the spreader tip. It all depends on wind strength and waves/no waves. With this trim you should see very slight wrinkles coming from the luff of the Genoa/jib. If not, adjust the halyard accordingly. Same with the car, adjust fore or aft from there [if needed] according to the same things. You can do the upper/lower tell-tail breaking thing if it makes you happy but most well cut sails will break high/inside when really trimmed fast, and what I just told you will probobly get you going faster than trying to get an "even" break in the tell-tails. For a fine tune, set the cars slightly different on either tack, sheet the main so that the top tell-tail is stalling about 50-70% of the time [again, depending on all of the above] and adjust the traveler car so that the boom is on the true centerline of the boat, or wherever it takes to keep the boat on it's feet and pointing well without pinching too much. Check the top leech tell-tail again and adjust sheet trim if needed. Don't forget that the backstay and vang are your gearshift and the mainsheet/traveler are the accelerater. When in doubt, pull harder on both [vang/backstay]. The boat will tell you when you have the right combination, or too much of one or the other or both. Most sailors don't pull anywhere near hard enough on the vang/backstay as the wind builds. Don't be afraid to try. Also, most sailors pull on the cunningham WAY too much, try to stay off of it. Having the draft back in the main and a nice flat entry is a fast, high pointing way to sail. The luff of the main should also now have some [mostly horizontal] wrinkles in it, mostly in the bottom half to third of the sail. Same drill. If not, adjust the halyard accordingly and start over. Get in the groove upwind and check your speed. Now tack without touching the mainsheet. set the traveler car in the exact spot on the opposite side and set the jib the same as you also had it. Check your speed again. Assuming [and this is assuming alot!] that your mast is in the middle of the boat, is tuned the same on both tacks, your keel isn't offset to one side or the other, you and your crew are sitting in the same spots as before and hiking as before [etc] you will see a difference in boat speed from one side to the other. Doing this back and forth can really dial in the trim. Also, use a GPS if you have one. Knot meters are notoriously inaccurate from one tack to another unless they are mounted in the exact centerline of the boat AND the paddle wheel is straight fore and aft.
Going downwind just set the traveller car in the center and forget about it, the vang is what's controlling the leech profile. If it's really light you will be reaching downwind and this may not work because sometimes you'll have to pull the traveller to weather some so that the main luff is breaking evenly from top to bottom with the chute trimmed.
Changing from the Genoa to the jib depends on too much to even go into, but mainly how many crew you have, how much they weigh and how hard they hike! Combine that with your sailing style and experience and how hard you and the crew pull on things and it's just too much to put a number on. One thing I can tell you is to NEVER reef the main on a fractionally rigged boat with a long boom until you have gone to your smallest jib. The boat may feel good to you but those who are doing it right will clean your clock!!!
I will leave the PHRF politics for someone else.
Dave
Very basically, when sailing upwind in any wind strength on most any keelboat in anything but heavy air, set the jib car so that as you trim the sail it touches the spreader and the chainplate at the same time [as long as they are both the same distance from the mast]. This is of course too tight, but it tells you that the leech and the foot are very close to balanced and usually results in a fast leech profile when eased to the correct trim, be that 1", 2" or 6" from the spreader tip. It all depends on wind strength and waves/no waves. With this trim you should see very slight wrinkles coming from the luff of the Genoa/jib. If not, adjust the halyard accordingly. Same with the car, adjust fore or aft from there [if needed] according to the same things. You can do the upper/lower tell-tail breaking thing if it makes you happy but most well cut sails will break high/inside when really trimmed fast, and what I just told you will probobly get you going faster than trying to get an "even" break in the tell-tails. For a fine tune, set the cars slightly different on either tack, sheet the main so that the top tell-tail is stalling about 50-70% of the time [again, depending on all of the above] and adjust the traveler car so that the boom is on the true centerline of the boat, or wherever it takes to keep the boat on it's feet and pointing well without pinching too much. Check the top leech tell-tail again and adjust sheet trim if needed. Don't forget that the backstay and vang are your gearshift and the mainsheet/traveler are the accelerater. When in doubt, pull harder on both [vang/backstay]. The boat will tell you when you have the right combination, or too much of one or the other or both. Most sailors don't pull anywhere near hard enough on the vang/backstay as the wind builds. Don't be afraid to try. Also, most sailors pull on the cunningham WAY too much, try to stay off of it. Having the draft back in the main and a nice flat entry is a fast, high pointing way to sail. The luff of the main should also now have some [mostly horizontal] wrinkles in it, mostly in the bottom half to third of the sail. Same drill. If not, adjust the halyard accordingly and start over. Get in the groove upwind and check your speed. Now tack without touching the mainsheet. set the traveler car in the exact spot on the opposite side and set the jib the same as you also had it. Check your speed again. Assuming [and this is assuming alot!] that your mast is in the middle of the boat, is tuned the same on both tacks, your keel isn't offset to one side or the other, you and your crew are sitting in the same spots as before and hiking as before [etc] you will see a difference in boat speed from one side to the other. Doing this back and forth can really dial in the trim. Also, use a GPS if you have one. Knot meters are notoriously inaccurate from one tack to another unless they are mounted in the exact centerline of the boat AND the paddle wheel is straight fore and aft.
Going downwind just set the traveller car in the center and forget about it, the vang is what's controlling the leech profile. If it's really light you will be reaching downwind and this may not work because sometimes you'll have to pull the traveller to weather some so that the main luff is breaking evenly from top to bottom with the chute trimmed.
Changing from the Genoa to the jib depends on too much to even go into, but mainly how many crew you have, how much they weigh and how hard they hike! Combine that with your sailing style and experience and how hard you and the crew pull on things and it's just too much to put a number on. One thing I can tell you is to NEVER reef the main on a fractionally rigged boat with a long boom until you have gone to your smallest jib. The boat may feel good to you but those who are doing it right will clean your clock!!!
I will leave the PHRF politics for someone else.
Dave
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grandillusion
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:42 am
- Location: South Havenish
I agree to a point. When I give clinics I often say that "telltails don't lie, as long as they're free to fly", that is to say, Static Guard and/or nothing sticky [etc] around them. Having said that, some folks put way too many telltails on their sails. Also, there's way more to trimming than just keeping both sides streaming aft. Add to that the fact that you can keep all of the luff telltails flowing even when the sail is TOO TIGHT, and you get my drift. IMHO, the most important tell-tail on any jib is the one that most folks don't even have and those that do rarely ever look at; the upper LEECH telltail! 98% of club level sailors trim the headsail too tight because they think that makes them point. After all, the luff telltails are still working. Without the upper leech telltail AND PAYING ATTENSION to it, you have no idea of where you are in the trim and/or what gear you're in. When the leech of the Genoa/jib is stalled, it REALLY screws up the flow over the main, the sail that has more to do with pointing.
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Martin Novich
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 12:45 pm
I am new to racing the 7.9 ...I use to race a Mega 30...
and I realy appreciate the feed back. I have another question??
The local PHRF is giving me 6 seconds because I run a roller furling
155 and they tell me they will take those six seconds away from me
if I run a 110 or a 105...or if I use the furler to shorten sail. Is this
what most PHRF clubs do??? I am forced to run a reefed main and a
a full 155 in medium to strong winds or give up those six seconds.
and I realy appreciate the feed back. I have another question??
The local PHRF is giving me 6 seconds because I run a roller furling
155 and they tell me they will take those six seconds away from me
if I run a 110 or a 105...or if I use the furler to shorten sail. Is this
what most PHRF clubs do??? I am forced to run a reefed main and a
a full 155 in medium to strong winds or give up those six seconds.
Martin
Texas Gulf Coast
Texas Gulf Coast
That sounds kind of crazy because the roller furling credit is there for the weight and windage on the rig and the shorther luff on the sails. No matter what headsail you use it still goes up the same furler. Also, the headsail part of your rating is derived from the largest sail you will use, not the smallest. Most locals use + 6 seconds for using only a 110% or smaller jib, so what you are discribing is backwards.
Dave
Dave
Smaller Jib
I am the local Handicapper for our club and from my experience the furler credit is 2 part, you get a 3 second credit for the furler and a 3 second credit for the dacron luff cover on the sail and the handicapping rules require the jib to be tacked to the furler drum (not to the deck).
If your smaller sails do not tack to the furler then you would not be elligable for either credit. If the smaller sails have a dacron cover and tack to the drum allowing the furler to function correctly then we would allow the credit with the smaller sails.
I have a Harken flex furler and stopped using it last year to try the sail inventory that came with my boat.
Hope it helps!
If your smaller sails do not tack to the furler then you would not be elligable for either credit. If the smaller sails have a dacron cover and tack to the drum allowing the furler to function correctly then we would allow the credit with the smaller sails.
I have a Harken flex furler and stopped using it last year to try the sail inventory that came with my boat.
Hope it helps!
jib
My club/ PHRF group grants a 6 second credit when using a roller furler; but you must use the roller sail as your only jib. It doesn't need to be dacron, or even have a UV cover, credit is ganted because the furler adds wieght aloft, and becuase the sail loses area down low, where it tacks onto the furler unit, and because its rises up off the deck.
I race even up against a Rogers 26 at 168, unless he's using his furler, then he rates 174. For short handed racing, or cruising, I'd certainly consider getting one.
I race even up against a Rogers 26 at 168, unless he's using his furler, then he rates 174. For short handed racing, or cruising, I'd certainly consider getting one.