Masthead Spinnaker Revisted
Moderators: sderby, Tim Bosma, Tom Elsen
Masthead Spinnaker Revisted
I am looking rig a masthead spinnaker. I'd like to hear from someone who actually uses a masthead spinnaker. I'll be sailing PHRF events on Chesapeake Bay here in the east. Being knew to the class, I'm a little concerned with stability issues in big air. Of course I could always fly the class spinnaker in questionable conditions. Anyone?
The thing that you need to remember is that once you declare the use of a masthead kite, you take the rating hit whether you use it or the class sail. The 7.9 is VERY competitve as is, IF SAILED WELL. Using a larger chute, genoa or main won't make up for the rating hit if it's sailed less than well. There ain't no free lunch.
Dave
Dave
Thanks Dave, just looking for other's thoughts on the subject. I'll be having a new chute built shortly and I want to get it right. I'm just trying to bring myself up to speed as far as all the nuances relative the the 7.9. I've heard some are flying masthead chutes with some success. I've not been around enough 7.9's to discern what is an what is not current. Just curious what the competive boats on the Chesapeake are flying. Anybody?
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Tom Elsen
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- Location: Minneapolis, MN & Chicago, IL
Spinnakers
AFAIK all of the boats out your way are sailing in one design trim. That includes the one fixed-keel SE model. Standard equipment on that boat is a masthead.
Just my opinion, but I'd surely know exactly the penalty I'm facing before I ever considered a non-standard kite. And I absolutely want to know if there could be additional adjustments beyond that. (Hint: It's PHRF - So bet there could be.)
The Annapolis light air conditions are tempting, but know the 'price' before you buy the item.
Just my opinion, but I'd surely know exactly the penalty I'm facing before I ever considered a non-standard kite. And I absolutely want to know if there could be additional adjustments beyond that. (Hint: It's PHRF - So bet there could be.)
The Annapolis light air conditions are tempting, but know the 'price' before you buy the item.
Best wishes,
Tom
Tom
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Dale Eager
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- Location: Falls Church, VA
Far Fig Newton (Annapolis) has a masthead for PHRF and is rated 165 vs 171 for standard OB. If you want to ask his opinion and can't find an EMAIL address for Dave N., PM me or Bob Fleck. Personally, I'd rather keep the 171 rating.
Are you planning to come to Screwpile? There will be at least three and possibly six 7.9's.
Are you planning to come to Screwpile? There will be at least three and possibly six 7.9's.
Coup de Vent #43429 (hull #43)
Orion27, that's what I meant ny "there ain't no free lunch". PHRF rating committees are all different but you can count on at least -3 but more likely -6. It would be different if you were asking about going to a masthead chute on something like a Merit 25. The boat is a 15/16ths rig and not much changes as far as extra sail area. Also, if you do go with a masthead, there's always the penalty pole to consider, because taller, higher aspect [higher halyard exit] chutes might be better on a reaching angle [light air] but the PHRF rules that we sail by, the pole can be 10% longer than J or less than 1', for a -3 second hit. BUT, that takes into account the fact that the chute can be upsized to those dimensions FOR NO EXTRA PENALTY! That's not a trivial issue. Here's what our rules say. You [of course] need to check with your own rating committee and get the scoop, but if you are seriously interested in more sail area for handicap racing, you might think about this option too. This option would net you more sail area out away from the rig and a lower aspect ratio shape. Better for medium to heavier air WL courses.
APPENDIX - C
ADJUSTMENT GUIDELINES
1. Sails:
a. Headsail adjustment is based on the largest genoa and is determined by the LP/J ratio stated as a percent. From 136% to 155% requires no adjustment, 156% to 170% the adjustment is -3 seconds, 171% to 180% the adjustment is -6 seconds. Over 180% the adjustment is assessed at the option of the Board. Headsail credit is +3 seconds for 135% to 111% and +6 seconds for 110% and smaller.
b. Spinnaker adjustment is based on the largest spinnaker, and is determined by the girth/J ratio or girth/JC, stated as a percent. Up to 180% no adjustment, 181% to 190% the adjustment is -3 seconds, 191% to 200% the adjustment is -6 seconds, and over 200% the adjustment is assessed at the option of the Board.
c. Boats with working roller furling mainsails that have no battens (or any other means of stiffening the sail material) will receive +6 seconds of rating adjustment.
d. No adjustment will be assessed for five (or less) tapered battens up to and including full length battens that are approximately equally spaced between the head of the sail and the clew. Each additional batten (over five) will be adjusted -3 seconds, unless considered a class standard.
e. Cruising spinnakers and gennakers are permitted in spinnaker class racing without adjustment, only if they are tacked to the jib tack at the bow and are the only type of spinnaker on board.
f. This asymmetrical spinnakers sail limitation for non-sprit boats will apply to asymmetrical spinnakers, including cruising spinnakers. Limitations for asymmetrical spinnakers are as follows: the asymmetrical spinnakers area must be less than or equal to the maximum allowed symmetrical spinnaker area, the SMG dimension must be larger than 75% the SP dimension, the tack must be set in the normal genoa position, and tack pennants are limited to 2.5 feet.
g. A boat may carry symmetrical or asymmetrical spinnakers, not both, and choice must be declared on PHRF certificate, otherwise PHRF certificate will be for symmetrical only.
h. The calculation of the area of asymmetrical spinnakers shall be computed by using the America’s Cup formula.
2. Spinnaker pole:
a. Any spinnaker pole, which exceeds the J dimension, is subject to a rating adjustment as follows: -3 seconds for up to a 10% increase over J. Increases greater than 10% but equal to or less than one foot, will only be assessed a –3 second change. Increases greater than 10% and greater than 1 foot will be assessed additional seconds on a case by case basis.
b. Boats rated with oversized spinnaker poles will use the JC dimension (spinnaker pole length) for computing the percent of maximum girth for spinnakers rather than J and will not be assessed a spinnaker adjustment unless they exceed the JC dimension by more than 180%
3. Spinnaker Hoist:
a. Spinnaker hoists (ISP) greater than the I dimension will be given a rating adjustment as follows: -3 seconds for up to 5% increase over the I dimension, -6 seconds for increases from 5% up to 10%. Increases greater than 10% will be assessed additional seconds on a case by case basis
APPENDIX - C
ADJUSTMENT GUIDELINES
1. Sails:
a. Headsail adjustment is based on the largest genoa and is determined by the LP/J ratio stated as a percent. From 136% to 155% requires no adjustment, 156% to 170% the adjustment is -3 seconds, 171% to 180% the adjustment is -6 seconds. Over 180% the adjustment is assessed at the option of the Board. Headsail credit is +3 seconds for 135% to 111% and +6 seconds for 110% and smaller.
b. Spinnaker adjustment is based on the largest spinnaker, and is determined by the girth/J ratio or girth/JC, stated as a percent. Up to 180% no adjustment, 181% to 190% the adjustment is -3 seconds, 191% to 200% the adjustment is -6 seconds, and over 200% the adjustment is assessed at the option of the Board.
c. Boats with working roller furling mainsails that have no battens (or any other means of stiffening the sail material) will receive +6 seconds of rating adjustment.
d. No adjustment will be assessed for five (or less) tapered battens up to and including full length battens that are approximately equally spaced between the head of the sail and the clew. Each additional batten (over five) will be adjusted -3 seconds, unless considered a class standard.
e. Cruising spinnakers and gennakers are permitted in spinnaker class racing without adjustment, only if they are tacked to the jib tack at the bow and are the only type of spinnaker on board.
f. This asymmetrical spinnakers sail limitation for non-sprit boats will apply to asymmetrical spinnakers, including cruising spinnakers. Limitations for asymmetrical spinnakers are as follows: the asymmetrical spinnakers area must be less than or equal to the maximum allowed symmetrical spinnaker area, the SMG dimension must be larger than 75% the SP dimension, the tack must be set in the normal genoa position, and tack pennants are limited to 2.5 feet.
g. A boat may carry symmetrical or asymmetrical spinnakers, not both, and choice must be declared on PHRF certificate, otherwise PHRF certificate will be for symmetrical only.
h. The calculation of the area of asymmetrical spinnakers shall be computed by using the America’s Cup formula.
2. Spinnaker pole:
a. Any spinnaker pole, which exceeds the J dimension, is subject to a rating adjustment as follows: -3 seconds for up to a 10% increase over J. Increases greater than 10% but equal to or less than one foot, will only be assessed a –3 second change. Increases greater than 10% and greater than 1 foot will be assessed additional seconds on a case by case basis.
b. Boats rated with oversized spinnaker poles will use the JC dimension (spinnaker pole length) for computing the percent of maximum girth for spinnakers rather than J and will not be assessed a spinnaker adjustment unless they exceed the JC dimension by more than 180%
3. Spinnaker Hoist:
a. Spinnaker hoists (ISP) greater than the I dimension will be given a rating adjustment as follows: -3 seconds for up to 5% increase over the I dimension, -6 seconds for increases from 5% up to 10%. Increases greater than 10% will be assessed additional seconds on a case by case basis
I know, its not easy when you're in a mixed PHRF fleet, and its late August, and the best air you can hope for is maybe 8kts, and even though you've built up a decent lead, some joker in a Catalina 30TM (tall mast) pops his chute, and starts running you down by catching a bit of breeze 10ft above your masthead. And you're trying to stay ahead of him, but you keep saying to yourself, ""if I only had 10 more feet of sail", and you're starting to think that if you fly your pants you might just cross the line a head of him.
Been there and done that;
I really considered the possiblility of a masthead chute a few years ago, and kicked it around the yachtclub bar a bit. General concensus was I'd take a 6 second hit, and since I have enough trouble sailing to my normal rating of 168, trying to beat anyone at 162 sort of killed the idea. Better to really race prep your boat, smooth bottom, get the exess shit off, and fly the class kite as best you can.
Been there and done that;
I really considered the possiblility of a masthead chute a few years ago, and kicked it around the yachtclub bar a bit. General concensus was I'd take a 6 second hit, and since I have enough trouble sailing to my normal rating of 168, trying to beat anyone at 162 sort of killed the idea. Better to really race prep your boat, smooth bottom, get the exess shit off, and fly the class kite as best you can.
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Old School
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:55 pm
I hope you haven't bought the masthead chute yet. I have a fixed keel boat with a masthead rig. The masthead chute is not great. The aspect ratio is too high and the thing is not very stable in higher winds. It also doesn't seem to be a huge advantage over the standard boats in light air. I would consider an oversized girth and longer pole over a masthead, but if I were to get a standard boat I definately would use a standard size chute. I'm not crazy about the masthead chute. My $.02.
masthead vs. fractional
Sorry, I'm confused. I've only seen my new 7.9 once (hey, it's winter here!) but it looked like it had one jib halyard and one masthead spinnaker halyard. Did some boats have a fractional rig (earlier or later) or was I looking at the mast wrong?
The online spec sheet lists one jib halyard and one spinnaker halyard, both the same length...so this makes me think all S2 7.9s are masthead rigs. No?
Marc (#195)
The online spec sheet lists one jib halyard and one spinnaker halyard, both the same length...so this makes me think all S2 7.9s are masthead rigs. No?
Marc (#195)
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Old School
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:55 pm
Marc,
The standard 7.9, all years, has a fractional rig with both halyards fractional. Some people have modified their boats to carry a masthead spinnaker. I have a 7.9 FK , of which there were about 15 made, and it has a fixed keel and a masthead rig. It is a rare boat and not class legal. These boats were built for MORC racing.
The standard 7.9, all years, has a fractional rig with both halyards fractional. Some people have modified their boats to carry a masthead spinnaker. I have a 7.9 FK , of which there were about 15 made, and it has a fixed keel and a masthead rig. It is a rare boat and not class legal. These boats were built for MORC racing.