roller furling?

[BarryE]

Recent experience, combined with the thread on reefing reminded me that most of my sailing (90% in fact) is PHRF, and usually I'm extremely short handed.
I've looked back, and in the last year, all but 3 of my races in PHRF were double handed.
In many cases, the other hand was my non-sailing fiance', who came with me just so I could get out. Once on the water, she bunkers down below with a book, and I single hand it from there.
Last weekend we sailed a distance race (26 miles) against a Rogers 26 (and others), equiped with roller furling.
Ordinarily, we'd rate even up at 168, but his roller furler gave him a 6 sec credit.
The end result, I'm serious about getting a roller furler. (The horror!)
Something that could be switched back to normal easily, and with minimal hassle.
Does anyone have experience with rollers on thier boat?
What's the preference? What do you have? Do you like it? How much sail do you loose?

[dave]

I have installed many Harken units over the years and have never had one issue on ANY of them. As far as "changing out" goes, they have a split drum so that it can be removed to have a full length luff, but if you want to get rid of the weight and windage of the extrusion you must have a separate, dedicated headstay to pin on. The headstay stays put inside the glued together extrusion sections on the Harken.

[Gerry Connolly]

I made the decision to go with roller furling (harken) and a 125 furling genie, mostly because we sail short handed and with guests that have little or no sailing experience. I don't have to send my wife up to the fore deck anymore, so she is a lot happier, and everyone should be able to relate to that. WE occasionally race phrf. The boat still sails fast, and can keep pace with Kirby-25's in 10 knots of wind. We can still use our 153, and I don't even bother to take the drum off. If I had a hot crew and was racing one design, I still have the old head stay and foil I could switch to. I don't regret the decision to go with the furler one bit. (ps, I don't remove my motor when racing either.)

[LarryE-old]

I compermised.
Went to hanks on the jib, we find this quicker on the short WL courses we race.
Went to slugs on my crusing main. We sail as a couple, day sail, 50% of the time and the slugs are a nice feature.

[dave]

As I have written in the past, hanks are great and what I use too even though for different reasons: Nobody needed on the foredeck to pull the freeking jib down and then feed it back up into it's "self feeding" casting! Even some of the new high performance offshore racing boats have gone back to hanks of one sort or another. Headfoils give the boat that "Gucci" touch to some but I wouldn't have one on a round the buoys boat. If you really need to change headsails on a typical PHRF or one design race course it's a piece of cake while going downwind!

[wkwtucson]

I have recently been also looking into putting a roller furler for my S2 7.9.
We had a discussion going under the forum heading "For Sail - Want To Buy", however this discussion may also belong here. I will post some discussion/questions here.

The furler of choice appears to be the harken unikt00AL (HAR1110).
I have a brand new Tuff Luff 1205 and I am still not sure if I can use the Tuff Luff with the roller furler.
It would appear that a new head stay and luff tape device maybe/are preferred? , then use the old head stay and Tuff luff for "racing"?
I would also be real interested in what a 130'ish genoa is cut to in terms of the luff, foot, leach and LP distances?
and does the tack (post furler installation) wind up in the same height off the deck or is it installation specific?
anybody? if we get a consensus then that would great.
If you get a new head stay and luff tape what are the dimensions and specifics of that product.
and what type of turnbuckle was required for the forestay inside the furling unit.
Kevin, Aim To Please Two, #29

[dave]

The turnbuckle is integrated into the drum of the Harken 00AL furler and the headstay becomes a captive part of the system. You must pull the pins at the stemhead and the hound and remove the whole kit and kaboodle if you want to use ANYTHING else as a headstay/luff attachment.

[Gerry Connolly]

Its been a bout three years now, but the turnbuckle is part of the furling unit. I bought the harken furler from a sailmaker/rigger (North Sails Atlantic) and they made me a new headstay. I do remember I had to put the foil together around the headstay, but it wasn't that hard. The genoa is cut to work on a furling system and is higher off the deck, with the foot angled up to the clew, so that when you reef, you don't have to change the position of the genoa cars. 125% to 135% is a good size as the sail will reef to 50-60% and still have a bit of usable shape. I went with 125% as it is pretty windy here in Nova Scotia. Any reputable sail maker can make you the appropriate sail with the UV cover on the leech. Some guys will take an older sail in good condition and have it re-cut it to work with a furler.

[wkwtucson]

just put most of this on the other forum listing I initially put in the "For Sale- Want to Buy" section
I am still looking for some dimensions for the head stay and some guidance on re-cuting a sail.
For logistical reasons, I may have to have the sail cut for furling before I have a new Harken-00AL furler installed.
I will be installing the system myself and am looking for a pin to pin distance on the head stay for the new Harken 00AL furler. It seems that no one wants to talk about the headstay length or actual sail dimensions. Whats up with that? As for me, I have been running in PHRF and to reduce weather helm I have been running on the long end of the class legal maximum fore stay length of 31'-8".
My "loose-on-the-ground" forstay length - center of tang at bow to center of head pin distance - is about 31' 7".
With the HAR00AL they say at "sailwerehouse.com" use loose 20" on the pin to pin on the forestay dimension after you install the furler. This would mean that I have a maximum sail luff length of 29'-11". For cutting down an old 155 to a 130 or 135 furling sail, you would probably wind up with a luff length or around 29'-4" - I'm guessing??
Then what do you cut to the LP, foot, and leach lengths to? This would help me decide on my next step.

On another note, It would appear that I will have to take my one year old (read new) Tuff Luff off.
And, as for having to replace the fore stay, I am still not clear on that either. On my boat the outer dimension of the forestay turnbuckle (the outer dimension of the threaded piece that stays on the wire forestay when you unscrew it from the base connected to the tang) is approximately 11/32" using a ruler to measure (a #6 SS turnbuckle per the owner's documentation?) and I am not sure if it goes thru the HAR-00AL drum. You kind folks who have been playing along with me seem to be saying that what is left at the end of the forestay does not matter and will be replaced by part of the HAR00AL furler. Right?
I have never replaced the head stay.
Maybe I should???

Anything?

Kevin in Tucson, hull29
(gettin ready for Mexico)

[dave]

Kevin, you can use your existing forestay but you will have to cut it and order the appropriate length and size mechanical stud for the bottom end. I have installed 3-4 of these on bigger boats and they work well. The Hayn Marine Hi-Mod are MUCH easier to install PROPERLY than the other brands that I've used. Like night and day actually!

I don't know where those dudes are coming up with minus 20". Just guessing from memory I'd say that the foot of the sail has to be recut so that the tack is approximately 8-9" higher than stock. I would still go with the class max pip-pin on the forestay.

[wkwtucson]

Here is a clarification of the 20" you loose on the forestay....
sailwarehouse.com says.." Pin to Pin headstay length minus deduction (20" for the Harken 00AL furler) equals maximum sail luff length that will fit" after the furler is installed. I am thinking that includes the roller drum at the bottom and the halyard Therefore the maximum luff could be 31'-8" minus 20" = 30'. This is where I have been seeking some other folks furling sail measurements of the luff, foot, leech and LP dimensions....

I am still looking to cut down a 155 racing genoa (1999 3DL North) to a 135 roller furling sail.
Will be removing some of the leach and foot where it is a little worn. Anybody done this with a 3DL.

I went on the web to look at the Hayn Marine Hi-Mod products. Lots of stuff, but did not see any roller furlers?? Any more info on that?
Kevin

[dave]

Whatever you choose to believe is up to you.

[BarryE]

Ok, I'm doing exactly the same thing right now; and did a dry fit last week prior to putting everything together;
1) Why get a new forestay? because you'll have to cut your old one to fit the inner joint connectors that join the harken foil pieces. these connectors slide onto the cable with close tolerance. After that you'll need a mechanical fitting on the end to replace the swaged end you've cut off. Sta-loc, norsemen, or haynes, take your pick, I've used sta-loc before and they are a bit fussy, if you're new to it, you might try the hayns.
2) The turnbuckle dissappears up into the roller casing, but is not truly integral with it. They share a special harken clevis pin at the bottom. You'll need to order it seperately.
3) The standard max luff for a regular hoisted sail is 30' 6" ; after you subtract the offsets for the roller at the bottom, and head swivel at the top you're down to about 29' 4"-6", or so for maximum luff. I've just ordered a new sail from Spike with those approximate measurements. The foot of the sail will need to be cut higher at an angle if its going to furl correctly, and total area of the sail after that is just a geometry exercise, figure out what you want, and extend the foot as needed.
4) When I ordered my new forstay, I got it made a few inches long so that I could cut it to the proper length before installing the sta-loc, and new turnbuckle, the end result will be class appropriate 31' 8" pin to pin.

[wkwtucson]

In response to Dave's last post..., first of all thanks for responding. You seem to have alot a knowledge that I am trying to attain myself.
Second, I am not sure what you mean about choosing to believe things.... I am only trying figure my issues out before creating new ones.
I also seem to get some conflicting information.
For instance, some one from North Sails said I could cut down a 3DL genoa for furling. However, others seem to say that the internal strings come together at the corners and that if you move the clew up and in (say going to a 135 or so), that you can not obtain a strong new clew location; which kind of makes sense. I really need new sails and if I am going to go to a furler, then that will change everything. And so I am in a postion where I am trying to figure things out and do not have alot of time.
K.W.

[dave]

A few things: There is no "standard max luff" for the headsails, only for a certain brand of the same. Mine are cut longer than the dimension that you gave. You are correct about the turnbuckle on the later units. I have installed both the old ones, the ones that you discribed and the newest one that has a round extrusion and one sail groove. Cripes, sometimes it's hard to remember all of this..........................

The bit about recutting ANY loadpath sail is laughable in the extreme. If you move any of the corners it's no longer a loadpath sail with the proper fiber orientation, just a hunk of junk looking for a quick death and a landfill !!!