Dear 7.9'ers -
During this year's first two races all of a sudden my 7.9 is out of balance. In both 16-19 kts with a #3, and 11-14 kts with the #1, there is huge weather helm - so much so that we rounded up once in each race, and came close to it numerous times. Needless to say, this is slow. In sailing and racing this boat for the past ten years, we've never before rounded up. Not once.
Any suggestions? Thanks in advance!!
AJ Oliver, Sandusky Sailing Club
Got those Round Up Blues
Moderators: sderby, Tim Bosma, Tom Elsen
Re: Got those Round Up Blues
Funny........................ I was wondering what a herbicide question was doing on a sailing forum!!!!!!
My guess is that your rudder blade has cocked back a little for whatever reason. The stock pin that slides through behind the rudder head is NOT enough and isn't perfectly positioned to begin with. The trailing edge of the blade needs to be absolutely vertical, as in parallel with the CB, then it also needs a larger hole drilled through the aluminum cheek plates and the rudder head into which you install a lock down bolt.
Even being 1/4" (or LESS) aft of vertical at the bottom of the trailing edge can add loads of helm!!!! You may also have a bent pin/bolt or a wallowed out hole if the above has already been done.
My guess is that your rudder blade has cocked back a little for whatever reason. The stock pin that slides through behind the rudder head is NOT enough and isn't perfectly positioned to begin with. The trailing edge of the blade needs to be absolutely vertical, as in parallel with the CB, then it also needs a larger hole drilled through the aluminum cheek plates and the rudder head into which you install a lock down bolt.
Even being 1/4" (or LESS) aft of vertical at the bottom of the trailing edge can add loads of helm!!!! You may also have a bent pin/bolt or a wallowed out hole if the above has already been done.
Re: Got those Round Up Blues
Dear Dave -
Thanks, I will look at that again. Right now I've got about 1/16th play below the rudder pin. I'll add a rubber shim or something to get rid of all the play.
We also changed the rig tuning - increased mast rake to class max, and tightened shrouds (to loos reading of 26 for uppers and 23 for lowers). This helped a LOT.
It seems counter-intuitive that raking the mast back would reduce weather helm since the center of effort would seem to be going in the wrong direction, but that's what happened.
Any other ideas out there?
Thanks, I will look at that again. Right now I've got about 1/16th play below the rudder pin. I'll add a rubber shim or something to get rid of all the play.
We also changed the rig tuning - increased mast rake to class max, and tightened shrouds (to loos reading of 26 for uppers and 23 for lowers). This helped a LOT.
It seems counter-intuitive that raking the mast back would reduce weather helm since the center of effort would seem to be going in the wrong direction, but that's what happened.
Any other ideas out there?
Re: Got those Round Up Blues
"It seems counter-intuitive that raking the mast back would reduce weather helm since the center of effort would seem to be going in the wrong direction, but that's what happened. "
Something’s not quite right here, because too much weather helm NEVER IMPROVES with more rake. Not having a positive lock down pin/bolt through the rudder cheeks and head just isn't a good way to sail the boat with repeatability and consistency. You say that you have about 1/16" of slop at the pin, but that's at the radius from the pivot bolt to the pin. If you take the distance from the bottom trailing edge of the rudder and divide that by the distance from the pivot bolt to the pin, them multiply by 1/16" (.0625) , you may be surprised at how far out of vertical the trailing edge can go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The flip side is that without a positive lock down, the rudder blade can and will float upward/forward in light air, making for a really bad feel, squirrely steering and terrible pointing!!! And before I get the nay sayers going here; although the 7.9 rudder blade is heavy as the dickens, it floats like a cork in water. So yes my friends, "can and will float upward/forward in light air" is a reality, and I've had it happen before, many moons in the past.
Something else to consider is that the pivot hole in the rudder cheeks, pivot hole in the rudder blade head and the stop pin that's supposed to keep the blade in the "right spot" are all slightly different from boat to boat and not exact to begin with. Do your self a huge favor and get the trailing edge of the rudder exactly parallel with the trailing edge of the keel (vertical to the water's surface) and install a real, foolproof lock down device. You will be amazed at how the boat steers and goes upwind afterwards!!!
I'm not saying that's your only possible problem, just the most probable. Bad mast tuning and an outhaul that's not tight enough for upwind sailing can create lots of turning moment on the leech. This can and will make the main want to act more like a weather vane than a sail. When this happens the boat (any monohull) will want to do the same thing as the weather vane on the barn........................... point straight into the wind!
Something’s not quite right here, because too much weather helm NEVER IMPROVES with more rake. Not having a positive lock down pin/bolt through the rudder cheeks and head just isn't a good way to sail the boat with repeatability and consistency. You say that you have about 1/16" of slop at the pin, but that's at the radius from the pivot bolt to the pin. If you take the distance from the bottom trailing edge of the rudder and divide that by the distance from the pivot bolt to the pin, them multiply by 1/16" (.0625) , you may be surprised at how far out of vertical the trailing edge can go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The flip side is that without a positive lock down, the rudder blade can and will float upward/forward in light air, making for a really bad feel, squirrely steering and terrible pointing!!! And before I get the nay sayers going here; although the 7.9 rudder blade is heavy as the dickens, it floats like a cork in water. So yes my friends, "can and will float upward/forward in light air" is a reality, and I've had it happen before, many moons in the past.
Something else to consider is that the pivot hole in the rudder cheeks, pivot hole in the rudder blade head and the stop pin that's supposed to keep the blade in the "right spot" are all slightly different from boat to boat and not exact to begin with. Do your self a huge favor and get the trailing edge of the rudder exactly parallel with the trailing edge of the keel (vertical to the water's surface) and install a real, foolproof lock down device. You will be amazed at how the boat steers and goes upwind afterwards!!!
I'm not saying that's your only possible problem, just the most probable. Bad mast tuning and an outhaul that's not tight enough for upwind sailing can create lots of turning moment on the leech. This can and will make the main want to act more like a weather vane than a sail. When this happens the boat (any monohull) will want to do the same thing as the weather vane on the barn........................... point straight into the wind!
Re: Got those Round Up Blues
This got me thinking of a past thread with the opposite issue (lee helm) but the fix was and is probably the same. The original poster admits to being amazed at how much difference in feel and performance can be had by very small fore and aft rudder angle changes!
http://sail79s.org/board/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1194
http://sail79s.org/board/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1194
Re: Got those Round Up Blues
Ya know, one thing I've thought about, but never tried, is in a LIGHT AIR RACE, on a downwind leg, to pull the centerboard all the way up, AND pull the pin and bring the rudder up too. That would seriously reduce drag, but might have several unintended consequences . .
Anyone ever tried this?
Anyone ever tried this?
Re: Got those Round Up Blues
Make sure that you have GOOD insurance and that it's PAID up before you do anything like that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!