launching from a hoist

[alanhsails]

Hi gang...I'm about *this* close to pulling the trigger on a 7.9 here in California but I have two questions for you cognoscenti.

1. I will need to launch the boat from a hoist, not a ramp. My truck is not capable of pulling 5,000 pounds up a ramp, I'm afraid. It CAN tow a trailer and boat 200 feet on the flat around the yard, though. I've read in earlier threads that some guys have launched from a hoist using straps.

Could y'all elaborate on that? Straps?

2. This is not a deal breaker or in fact really ALL that important...but I'll be sailing the boat on San Francisco Bay. I have no qualms about taking a 7.9 anywhere around SF Bay, these boats have a solid reputation. However, here's the question....

Would you knowledgeable lads and lasses take a 7.9 to Hawaii? Why or why not?

Thanks in advance!

[alanhsails]

Here's a picture of the yard, the landing area and the hoist:



It's a 3 ton hoist, single-point pickup. The two-ton hoist, which is in a different part of the yard, has an H-spreader bar system with straps. This hoist does not, so I'd probably have to supply my own...no big deal.

[Tac Boston]

I would just wait till high tide and borrow a buddy's pick up truck. We have used Chevy S-10's and Jeep Cherokee's in the past but a good ol F150 will take it right out!

Cheers
Tac

[SailingUphill]

1st question... why bother, just trailer launch. Doesn't the yard own a tractor? Heck my 3005 Deere 28HP could pull my boat out (yes I know this for a fact as I tow my boat around my property with it). But yeah, any old 1500 can pull the boat out, heck I'd argue just about anything with a V8 should be able to.

2nd question...

You know 3 Capri 25s have done the Single handed transpac in the last 25 years.
They all required MAJOR rework to A) qualify and B) survive.

The most recent attempt was last year (these are boats of similar age to the S2 7.9, 30+ years old). 1 of the 2 boats that attempted it, actually finished (just barely within the time limit), under jury rig, due to a busted spreader (one helluva sailor, and he gets my huge thumbs up!)... The other quit before the race started, as the delivery from WA to CA destroyed his boom (and he went through 2 sets of tiller pilots just getting there).

The Capri 25 is a much less "robust" boat than the S2 7.9. That being said, I know several things would be required to compete in the single handed transpac, and should be used as a "Guide" if you wanted to sail to the same location, which is why I mention it.
2 methods of providing steering (2 separate sets of pintles and gudgeons, hopefully reinforced within the transom separately as well).
2 different automated steering systems, windvane optional, but recommended
Stormproof hatches, particularly the forward hatch.
Reinforced tabernacle.

Personally Id add upgrading the T-Ball fittings on the mast for the shrouds/stays to permanently fixed attachment points too.
The Capri 22 has the T-Ball fittings as well, and they made (are making) enough of these boats, also many have wound up in rental fleets, that time and durability has proven out that the T-Ball fittings aren't a great solution for durability. They are presently suggesting all Capri 22 owners replace their T-Ball fittings with permanently attached shrouds, with special focus being on the lowers.
More about it here:
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm ... --mkii.cfm
While I know the T-Ball fittings go into the mast on the S2, rather than into a tang like on the Capri 22, I could easily see where the entry point over the years would/could wear through under heavy stress cycling.


Obviously a recent rigging replacement, and for good measure would be to probably replace the chainplates as well.

My personal want would be some way to lock the keel in the down position. While I know these boats are self-righting without the keel down, the possibility of losing a keel in a 90+ degree knockdown would keep me up at night. NO I've not heard of it happening... but an ounce of prevention. I'd think some kind of stainless steel rod affixed to the top of the keel and locked into the keel crane system would do it. Kind of the same principle as when it's all the way up, and you put the pin in, to hold it, except the rod would need to be 5ish feet long. It should never need to hold much weight, because in a roll-over the boat should just keep going until upright again (otherwise you have bigger problems anyway).

Any way with those improvements I'd consider the trek CA to HI. I think I'd still prefer a spade hung rudder over pintles and gudgeons, and transom hung. Probably a red herring though. I just think on a slamming/breaking stern wave the spade rudder has a better chance of survival, but then transom hung is on the fly replaceable (assuming spare pintles and/or gudgeons).

Oh and I haven't even gone into safety equipment I'd want to throw aboard. jacklines, safety harnesses, EPIRBS, DSC, etc.

[alanhsails]

sailinguphill.... Thanks for all that! VERY helpful.

No, this marina does not have a ramp or a tractor. There is actually a marina closer to my home that does have a ramp, it's just that my truck is a Chevy S-10 FOUR cylinder with a manual transmission. The towing limit is 2,000 pounds. Now, I have no doubt that my little truck can pull the 7.9 and trailer around at 10 mph on the flat for a hundred yards, even if it can't take it on the highway. I have serious doubts about its ability to pull the boat up the ramp.

However, if you guys think I'm stressing over nothing, that the little 4 cylinder S-10 will do this in a heartbeat, well, I'm willing to give it a try. It's just that the boat-buying deal with the Missus didn't include a new truck!

In fact, sailinguphill, one of the boats I'm considering instead of the 7.9 is a Capri 25. I've corresponded at length with the guy who did the last Singlehanded Transpac, and made it. I now know pretty thoroughly what he did to reinforce the boat. It's a flippin' lot of work. If you go way back in the SHTP archives, you'll find another Capri 25 that did it. I've also crewed on a Capri 25 on SFBay, though that was quite a few years ago. So I know a little bit about the Capri 25! It's good to hear from you, what I figured...that the S-2 is a much more robust boat.

Now, I might still get a non-SHTP boat for now and sail it around the Bay and have fun. Then in about 2020, when I plan to do the next SHTP and "keep going" for a while, I might buy a much different boat just for that trip. If I did that, I'd keep the 7.9 (or Capri 25 or whatever I wind up with) and sail it when I came back home. However, if it's within the realm of possibility to do the SHTP in the S-2 ( I did 2008 in a Santa Cruz 27) then...why not?

My main concern, offshore, with the 7.9 is the centerboard. I don't know the boat well enough to completely understand the specifics of what you mean by the 5-foot long rod, but I "get it" enough to understand what you're getting at. So thanks for that. I also totally agree with the rigging fittings issue you mention.

I know about the required equipment...I've done a SHTP before, so no worries, there.

[SailingUphill]

Cool, if you do the SHTP, in the 7.9 then you'll have a huge fanbase HERE!

[Stef]

We had someone pull a 7.9 on an extremely steep ramp with a 6 cylinder. I believe there is or was someone towing one all over the place in an Chevy Astro van V6. If you feel uncomfortable, try it, but have a buddy with a larger vehicle ready as a backup.

The centerboard is probably the best feature with the least problems on this boat. there should be no problem unless you hit something.

The right guy can sail to Hawaii in a sunfish.

[alanhsails]

Well, I made an offer on the boat that was accepted. We exchange check for title on Thursday... wooohooo!

I looked around the boat closely, after having read through this forum a lot. There's no delamination around the gudgeons on the transom. I tapped with a screwdriver handle and it's solid. Walking around the deck and cabin top produced no funny cracking sounds or flexibility. The starboard bulkhead tabbing is secure. I see no compression under the mast tabernacle. All of the interior carpeting is removed, so I can see the glass work and I'm impressed. Solid boat. Tabbing to the bulkheads is solid. This is WAY more substantial than the Capri 25 I was considering.

Looking at the massive boom and comparing it to the relatively eenxy spinnaker pole was kind of a giggle, but I grok why it's that way. The boat has some good sails, has some kind-of-beater sails but seriously needs a new spinnaker. Everything else is solid as a rock, though I might take a deep breath and replace the s.s. standing rigging. Oh, and the headfoil is completely shot.

it turns out that the Alameda Marina has a seriously beefcake spreader bar system that goes out to 12 feet wide and will go on the 3 ton hoist. I won't need that...if the max beam is 9 feet then 10 will do fine. I'll probably have to supply my own straps, but that's about $200...no big deal.

BTW, this is an inboard boat with the engine removed and no weight-compensation put in. What should its displacement be? I figure about 3900 lbs. but what say you more experienced folks?

Stef, you're right, but I'm not the guy to sail to Hawaii in a sunfish. it's good to hear that the daggerboard is solid. I figured as much. S2 wouldn't have produced 550 hulls if it was a junky system.

[Pete]

I launch/haul my S2 with a front wheel drive, 2012 V6 Explorer. I know I'm at my limit, but keeping in mind the factory capacities are likely quite conservative, I've never had a problem. I would not, however, pull the boat to Florida from Canada through the hilly bits. Would I sail the boat to Hawaii ? Not with the stock rudder. I'd want a solid, single piece rudder and not the stock "pivots on a pin" setup.

[USA007]

BTW, this is an inboard boat with the engine removed and no weight-compensation put in. What should its displacement be? I figure about 3900 lbs. but what say you more experienced folks?

Alan - I own hull 7, which was an inboard. It weighed in (on a local scale, not the official class scale yet) at 4,220 including my 59LBS outboard. Since my boat is so early in the production series it may be different than the norm. The boat has a large chuck of lead glassed in the bow roughly 18'' forward of the centerboard trunk. I would guess this piece of lead weights in around 200LBS based on the size. I then added 385 LBS of lead to the boat to get her up over the class minimum of 4,600. The right spot for the weight to get our boat to trim out right seems to be around the front of the engine compartment.

Hope this helps.

Drew
Bond Girl #007

[alanhsails]

It's been suggested to me that it will be faster, easier and potentially a LOT less expensive (due to the decreased likliehood of tipping over and sliding out of sling/spreader-bar support system) to use 3 or 4 lifting points attached to strong places on the boat....bulkheads, etc. Then, make a 3 or 4 point lifting bridle out of steel cable with swaged eye-loops shackled to a big ring that goes in the hoist hook.

There's a fellow at the marina who has a cold-molded quarter-tonner that weighs about 3800-3900 pounds that launches this way. It was originally built rather like a 7.9, with about 800 pounds of lead in the bilge and 400 in a board. He's taken out all the bilge lead and replaced the daggerboard with a shaped, modern strut-and bulb keel.

Has anybody else done this?

[Pete]

In all my nearly 35 years of launching and hauling keel boats at our club with slings I have never once seen any damaged or dropped boats because of slipping slings. Don't know where you'd place your lifting points but that will, I'm sure, introduce far more risk than slings would. Also the toe rail is fastened with screws into wood glassed to the hull so the toe rail is definitely not a lifting point. The S2 hull is quite flat and as such it's very unlikely slings would slip. The hull is very robust and can easily bear the weight of the boat on slings.

[BarryE]

I have to agree with Pete. Trying to modify the boat to take a single point hoist probably isn't practical or wise. I've used our club hoist several times with slings without a problem. Our hoist uses a single beam spreader bar that spans the deck just forward of the companionway and behind the centerboard. Two slings are used, both attached at the ends of the beam. One sling is angled forward and one angled aft. Under tension they would have a natural tendency to slip to the center but a tag line (extra dock lines) are used to pull the slings toward the dock cleats at the ends of the boat. The slings angle out at about a 45 degree angle just ahead of the centerboard forward and just ahead of the winches aft. We do a variety of boats this way including Tartan 10's. The spreader beam we use was "assembled" from two large heavy duty aluminum c-channel sections. It's about 9' (maybe, I'm not sure) and weighs about 80Lb. Two people and carry it and it is stored in our boat shed. Our hoist and spreader are used on boats up to 10,000.

[alanhsails]

Thanks, Pete and Barry. That's what I was hoping to hear! I did some measuring today and figured out the sling lengths. This will actually cost less than I thought it would. Interestingly I came to the same conclusions for sling placement as you wrote; about a foot forward of the daggerboard, and about a foot or 18 inches forward of the winches.

[alanhsails]

BTW, I bought hull #391 -- and I just found the class weight database on the main website.